Software Developers Journey Podcast

#200 It's a Milestone


⚠ The following transcript was automatically generated.
❤ Help us out, Submit a pull-request to correct potential mistakes

Tim Bourguignon 0:00
Yeah, it's a big thank you. I would do it anyway, as I said, but it really helps when you get an email saying was fantastic. Thank you or I liked this show, because awesome ideas or anything, it just makes my day each time. It's really a little ray of sunshine. And then if sometimes it's a bit hard and in front of the computer at 10pm, waiting for guests to join and saying, guy, it could be in bed right now. And you remember this, and suddenly everything's fine. Hello, and welcome to developer's journey to podcast, bringing you the making of stories of successful software developers to help you on your upcoming journey. I'm your host team building yo. It's episode 200. Can you believe it? Honestly, it is a bit hard to fathom. I published the first episode with me tonight back then. Well, let me tell you later, on March second 2016. Since then, I got two daughters, and I lost almost all my hair.

Tim Bourguignon 0:59
I'm going really fast to my 40th birthday. And let's not go there. I wanted to celebrate today. So I invited a dear friend, Patrick is joining from Quebec to run this show. So it's gonna be his show. He is going to turn the table around and we'll see what happened. Patrick, as I said, as a friend, he was guests number 123 123. So if you want to listen to his story, go back there. Number two, the number of special welcome back to the show. Yeah, thanks, Tim. I'm super happy to be there and share this milestone with you. I think 200 Who would have thought I'm sure.

Patrick Leblanc 1:36
I'm sure you didn't. Oh, yeah. No, it's amazing. How do you feel like tell us? How do you feel to him?

Tim Bourguignon 1:43
It's weird to went through the list of all the guests I had. And it's funny to to see memories coming back and see oh, I remember this one. And oh, I remember this one. And if you were to ask me, where would you guess you have a cetera, I would have a hard time. It's all merging together. But when I look at list and see the names, and suddenly, memories are popping up, or the whole time I just scroll through the list and spend five minutes just looking at each name and having those memories. It's really weird. Do you remember all of them, all of your guests will probably be lying. But most of them I think I really, I at least I guess a face, I get a face in my mind on each and every one of them. And I think I have some anecdotes and some examples in bits and pieces coming back from a for almost each story. But I must say some of them emerging slowly. The ones who were a bit too close together, kind of merging something. I don't remember if one anecdote is from one or the other.

Patrick Leblanc 2:39
But let me jump in on the too close together. And

Patrick Leblanc 2:43
I know from your land and of seats that you said you were reaching 5050 In terms of female and male, which you know, in our field is a proud you should be proud.

Tim Bourguignon 2:54
We even crossed it in 2022, we had more women on the Show

Patrick Leblanc 2:58
More women. I mean, that's congratulations first because I think it's I know you tried to get there. It wasn't Of course, if you let the flow go, you wouldn't reach 5050. So I think it's all the power to you to have done that. How do you think you're the split 5050 can affect the listeners and more how to come forth and share their story

Tim Bourguignon 3:22
that that's an interesting one. I'm not sure if it does too much, or not for the guests. Because most of the time, the guests are already a bit visible a bit on their journey toward becoming public speakers or public figures. And so I rarely have someone who has never done a talk and never done something in the open. And so I don't think that's too much of a change for them. But I'm hoping that it's a big change for people looking for role models. And right and people who can

Tim Bourguignon 3:58
exactly, listen, and it's always hard to figure out who the listeners really are.

Patrick Leblanc 4:04
That's like, Do you know what the do? Yeah, any analytics on your site,

Tim Bourguignon 4:08
I do have analytics from my host. But it's hidden between behind behind five different systems. So how podcasts work, you have your hoster who hosted the mp3 file. And then you have services like like Apple or Google or Spotify or Stitcher etcetera, who are acting as men in the middle and just sharing your content. They don't host the file, but they also don't give you the statistics that they have. So it's Yeah, I had no idea. I'm not running a podcast.

Tim Bourguignon 4:38
Basically, your listener is interfacing with their podcast app. Yeah, the podcast app is interfacing with one of the catalogs and the catalog is interfacing with the holster. And so in all those hoops, you lose most of the of the statistics. So there are some standards and so you get some, but it's definitely not not accurate. If you were to go on the on the Apple

Tim Bourguignon 5:00
dashboard. And there, you will see some very detailed statistics about people listening to your podcast via the Apple app. Yeah. And it's limited in number of versions. So it limits the scope of people listening and giving stats. But there you get some stats use, for instance, you see where people jumped in the or jumped out or where people spend time listening, etcetera. But this is sort of something you rarely see otherwise. And can you share with us the limited data that you have? I'm not sure it's really represent as you can. So I've got, I would say, 1/3 listeners from the US 1/3 from Europe, and 1/3 is at rest of the world, give or take. It's mostly 20 to 30 years old. So this 20 years range, I was hoping for a bit younger, but also people really coming into their studies. Yes, doesn't seem to make that much of a difference. There are a couple of cities which are straying a lot of downloads by I suppose this is some GPS gimmicks. So people were not really there. But the GPS says they are, what else do I have? I have some statistics about the download numbers sometimes spiking up with some guests and going three or four times. Popular guests. Exactly. Yeah. Weirdly enough.

Tim Bourguignon 6:12
Yeah. So shocked, I'm shocked. But in terms of download numbers, it's been pretty, pretty stable. For the past year, I didn't expect this, I thought it would go down with COVID. And people not commuting anymore. I mean, my consumption of podcasts has gone drastically down. I was gonna say it's the same for me. Like, I don't listen to podcasts anymore. Let's be real, because I'm not commuting at all. So the commute during the kitchen in the basement is so short that I don't have time to fire up at guests. I guess it just a few podcasts will last 30 seconds.

Tim Bourguignon 6:46
I've got a few podcasts, Lee, mostly new French news. We have some very short ones, two, three minutes, they still keep those. But then the time is limited between cars and audiobooks. And I tend to prefer audiobooks. And before that I had this commuting and so I was able to do both. But so is that the host that doesn't listen to podcasts? Not entirely, but not entirely, went really down. And so, but it's surprising that it didn't reflect on your listeners that they're engaged enough to continue listening. Apparently, it's pretty good. It is. It is really, really glad. And I know and humbled by this. So ya know, it's great. And can you tell us like because 200 200 guests means? Can you tell us a little bit like what what did you learn in those pasts? What is it four years, five years? Almost six?

Patrick Leblanc 7:40
What have you learned? Like, what did you get out of meeting and really engaging with 200 people for? Well, we know it's 45 minutes, roughly the episode, but in reality, it's a little bit more knowing you, you're chatbots.

Patrick Leblanc 7:56
So well, if you don't know people, they team chats a lot. So the episodes are much longer in reality. So when he told them we've been talking, we've been talking for about an hour before hitting the recording button.

Patrick Leblanc 8:09
An hour and a half team. It was an hour and a half. Oh, come on.

Tim Bourguignon 8:14
Okay, what what did I learn many things, which are which one is the most important? One thing is the every path is different. Every person's interest. I said it's I think in the end of the year are shown in the hundreds show, and everybody would do it. Still, if nobody was listening, because I love it. I love this sharing moment when somebody explains how they came to being who they are. And that was my next question.

Tim Bourguignon 8:41
I really love it. It's absolutely fantastic. And this is an exercise I've honed over the years trying to put myself in the shoes of a listener and trying to think like listener actually, that's what I'm doing, I am being the listener, you're the number one, the listener, the one listening to it, and trying to steer the conversation wherever I want to, or wherever I think is interesting and non direct, I want to pull it. And so when I see something or hear something interesting to poke at that. So that would be the first learning. And the second one is that I've been giving my time for that and trying to gather people around this project. And I'm very humbled at the amount of people communicating with me before the show during the show. And afterwards, the amount of contacts and news etc. and that I still keep with the guests is absolutely amazing. I've still send emails this week with some former guests and exchanged with them. And I wouldn't say they're friends, but there are people with whom I interact every year. And this is absolutely fantastic. And this is really a realization when you go out of your way to to interact with people and something sticks. And yeah, doesn't mean it's valuable interactions and we can hear that you get a lot out of it. And I think that's part of the launch

Patrick Leblanc 10:00
video of your show, if you were born to hell want to do it hear it.

Patrick Leblanc 10:04
It's not the case, it's part of what inspired people to share their stories. So that's, you can, if you still like it, then it's great for us, we're gonna have another 200 shows pretty soon

Tim Bourguignon 10:16
we'll see about that.

Tim Bourguignon 10:19
There's some up and downs, I've eaten up almost all my buffer. So at the time of this recording, I have something like 10 episodes recorded ahead of me, which is still okay, but it's not comfortable. And so for instance, in the past, in the past five days, I've reached out to something like 50 different potential guests, really trying to get things going. And it's a bit of a hustle. Really, you think, okay, I need to be on time is overly project management style, right? That's added cognitive load to juggle with and I don't think people appreciate really the time it takes for you to present 45 minutes weekly like that. It's not 45 minutes a week, it's way, way more. How do you balance that between your professional life? Because I don't think you're living off your podcast, your new outlet? But how do you balance that? Do you have time sometimes where you just you're like, it's been a great run, and but I want to give,

Tim Bourguignon 11:14
I want to give up, I never had the real thoughts of giving up. But I've had some times where I really said, Okay, I really need to reduce this, I really need to do something about it. Because it's eating me in summer, last year. So 2021, I did a drastic move something that was really drastic for me, which was giving out the the editing and I pushed this very long time, not just for financial reasons. But really, because I didn't want to give it out. I didn't want to give somebody else the responsibility for doing this. And that's pretty much the time where I changed job and took a job which is having eating even more of my time than before. And I jumped this, this this hurdle and really did it. I'm glad I did. It really saves a lot of time. But right can you explain us because we since we don't know, we just listened for 45 minutes, and it's per hour, what goes into an episode like can you run a run us through reading in 45 minutes is the structure. So a lot goes before the show, actually, I've honed a very long introduction funnel or preparation funnel for the guests. It starts with very long email with some philosophical ideas about the show about the historical ideas about the show how it became what it is some questions for the guests to prepare themselves, etc. which are not the questions I will ask during the show, because I really react to what the guests are saying. But to help them prepare, have ideas, anecdotes, stories, etc. Then when we start the record, before we start the recording, we chat a bit, not as long as with you, but something that 2010 to 20 minutes, so we'd say okay, and really get on the same page. Again, really try to make the guests comfortable, crack some jokes, really try to get the guests to laugh and to open up already, and really be in this mood in this sharing mood for the show itself. And they are I realize, for instance, having guests in the evening for them is not a good idea. I need to get guests early in their day or so that they are fresh.

Tim Bourguignon 13:10
Exhausted by the end of Yeah, absolutely. Makes a big difference actually. And so I cannot always and always manipulators. But sometimes I do and it was it was great. And and then it's really about getting the show going so so I'm helping the guests with the first question. And they know the first question already. And so that helps them to kickstart and then they can start sharing, and then we really try to go for one shot. So I added a lot of things, or we added a lot of things in between. But it's very rarely that we remove questions and answers, that we really remove parts. What we try to stick to is making things a bit smoother. So along thinking poser on some of this excellent excetera.

Patrick Leblanc 13:55
Two to two level questions, or the when you have an answer, and then you rephrase it again, and stuff like this. Try to simplify a little bit, but not to make it too slick because the idea is really to make the guest relatable. Right. And I think that's part of the appeal. Absolutely, too. I said the first time and I still think it's like hearing you're just missing a firewood word. If I were wood crackling in the background, like I think it's the power of the show. It's very human. It's very it's people. It's not the superstar. It's the people. I think, again, it's very it's the fact that it's very natural brings a lot to the show does really sometimes superstars

Tim Bourguignon 14:35
when I reach out to people with 100,000 followers on Twitter, plus, I always have who can I really ask them and sometimes you're amazed in something like 20 minutes you get an answer. Yes, let's do it. Words. Right. Right. But it's not because you have a million Ford that you're not a human being behind and no the fact. No, not all of them are buts.

Patrick Leblanc 14:59
But I think it's great

Tim Bourguignon 15:00
If that you're able to go past that, and bring, again the humanity, but you mean human side of this, this is what I love. This is really what I find most interesting when you have those relatable stories start with something that everybody listened, everybody experienced before and really can relate to the pain points with the to the experience gained and what the next step could be. And then you're surprised because it's not the next step. You were thinking, yeah, it goes in a different direction. They Oh, that's interesting. And it goes from A to B, it's really this human side, this relatedness. It's, that's the show. That's really true. And would you say your guests are mostly passionate about what they're doing? Or do you have guests that they acknowledged like they're in it for the money? They're in it for other reason than passions, then the passion for it? Or is it a mix of both? Like, what?

Tim Bourguignon 15:55
What general lay of view? Do you have your guests think we will have to redefine passionate? So when you're asking the question, I said, Yeah, of course, they're all passionate. They're all passionate about what they do. They're all passionate about, about talking about it, about what goes into it, etc. Yes, there is a selection bias for sure. Yeah. But just after you said, Oh, are they in for the money? So yeah, but some of them are, they're above the money, and then really working nine to five. And that's pretty much it. And it follows a lot of them on Twitter. So when no one's really saying, Well, I don't code in the evenings, I don't code out of work outside of work. It's my work. It's not what I do for my hobby. Right? Still, she was absolutely passionate about explaining why she went into it and what she's doing. And I think it's, I'm not putting any shade to these people. I'm the same. And I know we both started very young on TI calculators.

Tim Bourguignon 16:49
My case Cubase, eight, we started as a passion. But personally, I don't code anymore outside of work, what I consider work. And I think it's very doesn't discredit the person for being passionate about their work. Maybe the passion switches a little bit from this satis active state into a more concern interest for the whole thing. So don't call that either. But I'm really passionate about my colleagues and how they work together and how the whole show is evolving. And I'm still passionate about what they're talking about when they start talking about Graph QL and how they're designing UPI, etc. The whole less interesting, but Right, but that's the thing I'm nerding on not anymore it Moneyball Exactly. Yeah. I think it's fair. It's maybe we're growing as individuals, we've seen so many JavaScript frameworks.

Patrick Leblanc 17:40

Tim Bourguignon 17:42
on, we're just old, or we're just old. I'm 40. But it's, I think there is wisdom you get when you're young and you start your carrier, you're passionate and you do love things. But as you said, we get older things there. I'd like to think anyway, there is a lot of wisdom, and you'd like those people like to explain it to share their wisdom, what they've their path of life, but they encountered their challenges, because everyone had a unique path. Everyone has something unique to bring the table. Diversity is the better is the best one, just to read through to reap to bounce on that. One of the kinds of shows I personally love the most is people who don't look exactly like me. So not the CS degree graduates, but really people who had a career who did something, and they were passionate about that for 510 15 years, and then chose to join the tech, the tech side of life. And those people I think are particularly interesting, because they bring a different experience on the table first. And so you have people who are novice at programming, but who, for instance, have been traders, financial traders, for years or women's news, you were mentioning the blacksmith. Oh, yes, exactly. That became. Unfortunately, if you look carefully at the list of the guests I had on the show, there are a few holes or a few numbers that were there, and then it removed them. And it's not because I decided to move. So I did a few charts show at the beginning, which were in German and in French when I was still dabbling with the the form and the idea and how to create the show and then remove that because I wanted the show to be in English. But I had two stories, one about a blacksmith becoming a developer and one blowing glass because it's amazing that people can have such a career and then change paths entirely. And we're bringing values and bringing principals and bringing their way of working and their way of being into this new field. And at this meeting to me and I agree with you I think there is collectively we are taking what's the word I'm looking for collectively we are realizing that there is more than just one

Patrick Leblanc 20:00
white male CS degree in it and people from different backgrounds, different paths of life definitely do bring. And I've witnessed this myself in my team at the time, different paths of life brings different ideas and different solutions to the problem that you might have not think of. And it's just more valuable for the organization, whatever the organization is company, or it's just very valuable. And I think the fact that you're trying on your show to showcase the path of those people is very helpful. And very, what's the word I'm looking for? It's an enrichment for us to hear those stories. So yeah, it's great. It's a wish more people would get people from different paths of life more chance. I think it's starting, but we're very far from this. I can see it in the job market. In Montreal. It's super hot. We have in Montreal, we have you have Google, we have Facebook, we have all the big companies are established, especially in AI. But big. All the game studios are established in Montreal, so there is sent jobs for one applicant. And the reality is that a lot of fresh immigrants, they're just not given a chance. They're just not given a chance. And it's, to me, it makes me sad, like, because they maybe their English is not perfect, their French is non existent, but doesn't matter that their English is not perfect. And we're not giving them the chance to showcase their skill and their problem solving. And it's, it's, it makes me sad.

Patrick Leblanc 21:38
That yeah, I'm really trying to use the visibility, I have to do my part of the work and try to highlight some people I still want one of the goals I have is to go more toward Asia now. Okay, yeah. And I've had a few guests from Nigeria. But the rest of Africa is is pretty, pretty low in my guest list so far, to do some some efforts in there. But it's not that it's not easy. It's not easy. No, and you have to you have the language barrier. Also, like you said, on your show, you have some guests that they might have a super interesting story, unfortunately, because of the language barrier, you're not able to share it. And it's, again, nothing we can do about it right now for this show, in particular, but maybe it will inspire other shows in other languages to know to do it in their language. That those best, right, so you said you you were still doing it for yourself? How do you see the next 200 shows? How do you is there you just mentioned like you wanted to go to Asia? Like where do you see the future for the show.

Tim Bourguignon 22:41
There's still a lot of pokemons to to collect.

Patrick Leblanc 22:45
The achievement list is not our

Tim Bourguignon 22:49
first I want to look back one once more. One of the things that amazed me and that I didn't expect and didn't if I had thought of it, I should have seen it coming. But I'm now looking at the guests for something like three years ago and looking at where they are now and what they're doing. And it's amazing to see those people who it took when they were not famous at all, and they were not known at all. And like to think that I was one of the stepping stones that they used to be

Tim Bourguignon 23:17
heard voice on the internet, and really did something so of course, it's not a my success to gather there to claim here. But I like to think I was one of the stepping stones. And so what I would like to do is really continue doing this is finding people who are young, who are not young novice in our field who have not so many years behind them in our field, and really help them reach a next level. That goes team. That's good.

Tim Bourguignon 23:50
Reading, that's possible. Yes, yes. So I really try to mix and match between people that we know already. And I think you need those to keep the show running to have some big names once in a while all the listeners will recognize and say who interesting, but also really try to continue having unknown people who just came from nowhere and have a fantastic story to share. And this I really am really seeking for those persons where I'm on the internet on Twitter on reading reading articles, etc. I take screenshots and really try to remember those people and say, Oh, I have to interview this person and this person that's not at some point. I have a list of people who are just starting their careers and have I think fantastic things to say but I say okay, let's news news personal bit. Let's let them gather a bit more experience and then I can invite them. I really want to keep an eye on those kinds of profiles because I think it's absolutely fantastic to

Tim Bourguignon 24:45
have you keep an eye on so many people. I have a whole database of names now. I'm sure GDPR style on air table. Now I use their air table extensively. And I have their people so names where I found this

Tim Bourguignon 25:00
people, their handles on Twitter on social media, and then some automation to remind me of those people after so after a while, so who I have a whole whole list of status to know who already conducted who I didn't want you to to put send some reminders, but also people that want to snooze and people say, Okay, let's remind them in a couple of years, let's say wouldn't what happened? And then so you built your own CRM, completely?

Patrick Leblanc 25:25
Completely useless. The developer thing?

Tim Bourguignon 25:28
I built it, I didn't code it. So I'm half as bad.

Tim Bourguignon 25:33
Good point. Yeah, I think the list has something like like six or 700 names now. So yeah, okay. Including the 200. Who were on the show. Ready? Still? Yeah. Very distances. It's starting to be a decent place. Yeah. And some of them probably never get to them.

Tim Bourguignon 25:49
Unfortunately, it's, yeah, it's the fact of life. So yeah, that will be there to look into into the future, really keeping this balance between big names and unknown people and try to continue being a stepping stone, that will be the wish.

Tim Bourguignon 26:05
Do you wish I know it's very far fetched? But do you wish would you wish to make it full of full time? Activity a full time job? The story sharing is absolutely fantastic. I've done my fair share of coaching as well. Right? So but I'm not sure I would like that to be my full time job. I mean, if you put money out of the table, and I can do whatever you want, in 1515 hours or 20 hours a week, just that, yeah, hell yeah. But But doing 50 hours or 40 hours a week, community building, and really trying to reach those more people and having this growth mindset of trying to make it say my job or keep it as a daytime job, etc.

Tim Bourguignon 26:47
I'm not sure I really love this conversation, stuff. And yeah, you sharing stories, and I really work on limiting the overhead and not having to do too much around it. And really keeping this story in the forefront. And so

Patrick Leblanc 27:04
I don't think I would like to make it full time activity. Keep it like a hobby or passion than an actual gotta wake up to do it. And speaking of waking up to do it, you had to wake up early a few times to interview your guests, or go to bed really late.

Tim Bourguignon 27:25
I mean, I interview people from all over the world, so So you have to synchronize at some point. But usually it works out. Since the pandemic, one of the good things of the pandemic, I'm working from home the whole time. And so it's easy to squeeze an interview during the day like this. So you took to deal with, they don't have gotten you to deal with most likely. Exactly. So exactly. So before before that until the beginning of 2020. It was really uneven. tivity. So it was I will say I would say 90% of the recordings ended before that. Were after 9pm. So between 9am and 12pm. Because you were interviewing in Europe and North America and North America. Yeah, yeah. And Africa works as well. And that's maybe also why I wasn't so long toward the east toward Asia. Yeah. Because it would be harder for them. 5am for Exactly. Right. So but we manage

Tim Bourguignon 28:21
would be pretty interested to know, like the story of people in Asia, because so different from what we're used to as Western in, quote, unquote, such a different day to approach this job. So well. Let me know, when you meet somebody. Well, I'm still searching for some vectors to get there. Right. I had a few contacts in India. And so I was trying to get some some good stories I haven't found really do good people's to do good persons to interview. I'm also and this is this is almost ashamed to say I need to be listening and understanding the guests correctly. And I'm having a hard time with the Indian accent. Right. And so I think I'm a bit reluctant in going there. I had this with a few guests from Nigeria, where I was really, really concerned if I was understanding them correctly. And really understanding where they wanted to go, etc. I think it worked out but sometimes really hard. And so think I'm refraining from really going there. Maybe I should do it and just shut up about it.

Patrick Leblanc 29:22
Nobody, it's a valid point. It's what we said about the accent general understanding if your listener can't really understand or it takes a lot of effort to listen to the guests if I think a lot of listeners wouldn't give them the chance, right? Because that's the thing is the accent. So but on the other hand, I'm pretty sure there is a whole bunch of developers in Asia who speak perfect English and I just need to find, of course, but yeah, lots of needle in the haystack. Like so many people out there. How do you find them? That's the question. How do you find them and to reach the 50% women on the show? I

Tim Bourguignon 30:00
asked me for my guests to find them. So I guess I have to start doing something really asking the guests to you know, some people I've been asking for the past and for the past month actually, not for women anymore. They're really fun people from underrepresented communities who are not on my white males is Gen radar. And so I'm starting to have a few more people from the from the LGBTQ community, etc. So that is good. Maybe I should continue pushing. And so I think it regional enriches the shows various paths of life. For us, as I had a question about the relationships out of the show, like did you build any long lasting relationships with your guests? Some of them the longest one I would say is I mean, I was I was the first guest I published. And I wasn't the first guest I interviewed but the first guest I published and who interviewed me for fun number 100. And I am Italian is a very good friend. And he moved to Germany a few years ago, and he must be back to New York now. So we met it was amazing. And that is really a long lasting relationship. Trying to think of there are some really relationships or friendships out of the show older than me Thai, not really interviewed many people I knew before. So basically, the first 14 shows were only people I had seen in real life.

Tim Bourguignon 31:24
Whatever that is, there were people had met.

Tim Bourguignon 31:27

Tim Bourguignon 31:30
Exactly. I think until no, no a bit a bit longer than that. 45. For

Tim Bourguignon 31:37
the first 45 guests, were really people I met at conferences I knew before, and I interviewed some of them face to face in the same room, I have a setup for recording face to face as well. It's actually a nightmare to use anymore.

Tim Bourguignon 31:52
Yesterday is way, way easier. But I used to do this. So not friendships from that level. But there are a few guests with whom I have a chain exchange some emails every month. It's done since then, but mostly on some topics on some special topics in between not immune and them. So some of it's about technical documentation. Some of them it's about music, some of them is something different entirely. So I still keep in touch. I wouldn't call that friendship, but it's really useful, some long lasting connections.

Patrick Leblanc 32:23
That's cool thing you want to add?

Patrick Leblanc 32:26
Anything I want to add? I think we covered a lot of a lot of ground on the podcast, I think it's, again, great. You've managed to go this far that you've managed to be so inclusive as well, I can't wait to see what the future brings you like the LGBTQ community, I'm sure we're going to have a great story really heartbreaking stories also, you know, hopefully with a good ending.

Tim Bourguignon 32:50
Go ahead. And there's one thing I have to say. And it's it's thank you to all people who have been following me who have been listening, downloading, sending me feedback, sending reviews, telling other people about the show sharing the episodes, the penrite. Supporters, how do you call them supporters? Supporters? Were actually making really a dent in the bills I have. Yeah. So that is really helpful, because free to run a show.

Tim Bourguignon 33:19
Free? Exactly. I didn't use the taking the lion's share of them. That's also maybe why I pushed it so long. I'll send you my bill for being the host.

Tim Bourguignon 33:29
Discuss offline. You know what, I'll double it.

Tim Bourguignon 33:35
Yeah, so yeah, it's a big thank you, I would do it. Anyway, as I said, but it really helps you when you get an email saying was fantastic. Thank you, or I like this show because, or awesome ideas or anything, it just makes my day, each time it's really a little ray of sunshine. And then if sometimes it's a bit hard and in front of the computer at 10pm, waiting for guests to join and saying, oh, guy, it could be in bed right now. Then you remember this, and suddenly everything's fine. And so couldn't end this on a different note. It's thank you to everyone. So I'll see you on episode 400. For the follow up.

Tim Bourguignon 34:16
You will hear me but definitely not be there because we heard it we have to make some changes in the diversity of I don't know what you're talking about two male co guests. So the next one is going to be different. It has to be different. It has to be different. I agree. I agree that it thank you very much for accepting to jump in and take this role has been my pleasure. It's been my pleasure.

Tim Bourguignon 34:40
Awesome, then I guess I have to say the final line. It's been it's at the end. It's still your show. It's my show. Okay, so it's been another episode of their purchase journey. And we see each other next week. Bye. Bye bye.

Tim Bourguignon 34:54
Thanks a lot for tuning in. I hope you have enjoyed this week's episode. If you like

Tim Bourguignon 35:00
make the show, please share rate and review. It helps more listeners discover those stories. You can find the links to all the platforms to show appear on our website, Dev journey dot info slash subscribe. Creating the show every week takes a lot of time, energy, and of course money. Will you please help me continue bringing out those inspiring stories every week by pledging a small monthly donation, you'll find our patreon link at Dev journey dot info slash donate. And finally, don't hesitate to reach out and tell me how this week story is shaping your future. You can find me on Twitter at @timothep ti m o t h e p or per email info at Dev journey dot info

Tim Bourguignon 35:51
talk to you soon.