#254 Marjorie Aubert from nurturing plants to mob programming

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Marjorie Aubert 0:00
In biology, technically, not everything is possible, you have to look for a way to test and prove you an apotheosis. So when I discovered bioinformatics, and code, I was really surprised because everything is possible, and you have to choose how to handle it. And is why completely a new way of thinking for me. And yeah, I think well, this is really interesting.

Tim Bourguignon 0:30
Hello, and welcome to developer's journey, the podcast, bringing you the making of stories of successful software developers. To help you on your upcoming journey. I'm your host, Tim bourguignon. On this episode, I received Obear. Murray grew up in a small village of 80 ish people with 1000 friends. And as a child, she loves to play outside lavender fields and African portraits. After high school, she chose agronomy. But you know what, I'm not going to read the rest. The rest of this bio is her story, and I want to hear it from her directly. So monitoring. Welcome to the afternoon.

Marjorie Aubert 1:06
Hello, everyone. Hi, team. I'm super happy to be on your podcast. Thank you for inviting me.

Tim Bourguignon 1:15
It's my pleasure, and you have a big smile on your face. I like that. But before we come to your story, I want to thank the terrific listeners who support the show every month, you are keeping the Debjani lights up. If you would like to join this fine crew and help me spend more time on finding phenomenal guests, then editing audio tracks, please go to our website, Dev journey dot info and click on the Support me on Patreon button. Even the smallest contributions are giant steps toward a sustainable dev journey. journey. Thank you. And now back to today's guest. So Marjorie, the show exists to help listeners understand what your story look like, and imagine how to shape their own future. So as you run the show, let's go back to your beginnings. Where would you place the start of your directory?

Marjorie Aubert 2:09
Actually, that's a very tricky question. Because I became a web developer following professional reconversion when years ago, so I didn't really start my day journey as usual. So if you don't mind, I would like to start my dev journey back when I was a child, because you will better understand why I made it. So die choice and why I choose to become a developer. If it's okay for you. If it's not, yeah, I will fail. No, no, no.

Tim Bourguignon 2:47
No, hell yeah. I like second careers. So let's dig in just studies, maybe your childhood and then this first career and how it told evolved. This is the show actually. So let's get in there.

Marjorie Aubert 3:00
Okay, perfect. So as you say that I grew up in a really small village of 80 people in Provence, so for France, and as a shade I love to play outside as you say lavender field and a precoat orchard. And maybe some people might think that it should be boring but on the contrary for me it was really wonderful. Because even today when I go back as fast as the sun goes down, I feel in peace. And as always, the evening and night rings a lot of magic, actually for me. You could see so many ministers in the sky and it's yeah just take your breath away. And I was at that time and I'm still today crazy about all perfume and aromatic and medicinal herbs. I like to grow them and pick them and use them in in very various way and in cooking as well. My dad I do computer for work, but at that time I wasn't really interested in it I just play some couple of strategic video game but subtle but my parents always encouraged me to evolve discover what I like and what sparked me joy and actually what's bring me joy in my life as being my compass to guide me through my choice. And it's still today yeah, my contacts in life. So they knew I was fascinated by you plant and there are encouraged me to pursue in this path. But yeah, maybe it's gonna be a little poetic. I don't know or completely full But for me, I can we not be completely fascinated by client because they're immobilized a state or their life in the same place. And yet they are capable of such incredible things, such as produce fruit see to do photosynthesis. And yeah, I think you can hear in my voice. I think there are really amazing for me,

Tim Bourguignon 5:28
you cannot see her, but I can see a big, big smile here in front of me. So obviously, this is what you were meant to talk about and be but what happened at some point I want to know, so let's continue.

Marjorie Aubert 5:39
Yeah, thank you. So after high school, Nigeria, I choose to study agronomy. And I do did most of my internship in phytopathology, is a study of plant disease. And when I was in my first years of master's degree, I had the opportunity to join the iGEM team. It's not an international student competition in scientific biology. And our project was to develop immunotherapy against cancer. And, you know, when you are young, you are some kind of a dreamer. I'm still today, but you know, you have the opportunity to work on health issues, and you say, Okay, I'm going to do that. And it was a very rich experience on human, human and intellectual livers. It was the first time I jumped into a field where I didn't know much about it. I was intrigued and motivated. So yeah, I just learned, it wasn't easy, but it was really fun. And the same years, I discover bioinformatics and wrote my first line of code in our I don't know if I say exactly correctly, but

Tim Bourguignon 7:13
the French as well, so I don't know.

Marjorie Aubert 7:16
But I remember thinking, wow, this is so powerful, because I don't know if it's abuse, but in biology, technically, not everything is possible, you have to look for a way to test and prove you an apotheosis. So when I discovered bioinformatics, and code, I was really surprised because everything is possible. And you have to choose how to end and delete, and is like, completely a new way of thinking for me. And yeah, I think, well, this is really interesting.

Tim Bourguignon 7:57
I'll come back to that.

Marjorie Aubert 8:02
Okay. And during my second years in Master, I was living in Paris for my studio, and I missed really, really much plants. So I decided to create a little company with a friend called canopy. We would like to bring small species of nature into ohms. So I designed an aeroponic prototype to grow plants on the wall. And this was a really fun journey. We've actually many water puddles on the floor. So not the way he's going to be. But yeah, it was fun. And you could imagine

Tim Bourguignon 8:52
I'm thinking about the discussion with the neighbors. Neighbors complaining about about water damage and saying well, but it was prototyping number 22. And yeah, we know.

Marjorie Aubert 9:04
It's, yeah, it's, it's that's

Tim Bourguignon 9:09
what happened with a company.

Marjorie Aubert 9:11
Yeah. So with the company for elf vision, I had to stop. But it was really interesting because I learned to get out of my comfort zone. And it wasn't easy, but I really try to enjoy, try new things. And even when you fail it it's because you fail really often and really fast. When you prototype something, and yeah, it's it was really rich in learnings. Because since then, I always try to have in mind to keep a balance between all my life dimension to Yeah, to find a balance. It's perfect for that. I think But it's always a little adjustment. It's not perfect every time, but I think it's a pretense. For a long time,

Tim Bourguignon 10:12
it is no, it will never be perfect. You're always oscillating between stuff. And you don't realize when you are the sweet spot, you realize when you left it, and so then you cross correcting another direction, then do a little bit more of this and never will that and you circle around. So get used to it. But I think it's the third time you mentioned learning already. So it seems to be central in your story.

Tim Bourguignon 10:37
Yes, I will say okay, I made a mistake. So how can I do differently next time. So

Tim Bourguignon 11:34
Where were you attracted to to creating your own company? A long time before that? I was just an idea at some point. How did that come to be?

Marjorie Aubert 11:42
I'm actually my dad is a farmer. So I was always involved on the phone and on the safe spots. And I really liked this part. So I always I've in mind to, you know, just to Yeah, try, actually. And company is one way between the noser to achieve that

Tim Bourguignon 12:12
at some point, you had to fold this company for health reasons you said? So you stopped it completely? Is it frozen somewhere in your mind? And you want to come back to it? How is it?

Marjorie Aubert 12:23
Actually I stopped it completely, because it was few years earlier now. And the market was really open to that. And now you are various products. Do the same thing. Some? Yeah, I think it was a good idea at that time. And today. It's not really me. It's not really fit into the market. So yeah, if I will have other products.

Tim Bourguignon 12:55
If it's not really you, how did you come to being you today? If it's a different you?

Marjorie Aubert 13:02
Yeah. So after my studies, I decided to combine human health with agriculture, because it was too few that I love. And so I became a national Professional Risk Management advisor during six years. It's and I had some products on your mission and tech projects. So I really dig into human health and talk about talk with people understand their need their, their difficulties, and it's something I really like, but, you know, time passing the wish to become a web developer as grown up. It's wasn't an epiphany. It was not. I don't know, sometimes you see the movie, you wake up and you are okay, I'm gonna do that. No, it was. It wasn't that for me. It was more like your process in my case. Because there after four years, I had my habits in my work. I knew the difficulties, I knew the issue. And so I have, I had some space in my brain to think. Because it was comfortable. And I wanted, I wanted something more I wanting Sophie, something else, but I didn't know at the time. Yeah. So at first I didn't know exactly what job to do. So I knew that I was intrigued and fascinating by tech in general. I bet I was interested in in project management. That's Anneliese and web development. But yeah, I have to choose and so it parts of myself. A part of me tells itself a lot have beautiful stories. I told you I was a kind of dream earlier. So in order to keep my feet on the ground, I started by contacting people. And I was very surprised. People took time to answer my question, give me context and tips and really share their story. And I think, Okay, this is really interesting. And I've maybe this is gonna be, this is going to sound really strange. But what I liked the most is, it said, none of them told me. It's, it was going to be easy. None of them told me everything will go smoothly, we vow to hinge. No, on the contrary, they were very authentic, and spoke the truth. But in their voices, I Are there no regrets at all. And it was really interesting, because it, it was all I needed to hear. In order to feel confident, I prefer to know where I put my feet, it's easier to be prepared. And I don't know if it's the same in other country, but in France, you have plenty of article on carry out transition. And everything is wonderful. Everything is so great. For me, it's not enough because you have only one side of the picture. And this is great because these theories put some glitters and and encourage people to do so. But I really need to have the other side to have the global picture and say, Okay, with this global picture, I know I would like to do that. No, no, if it's clear,

Tim Bourguignon 17:05
it is it is when when when when you hear it, and it sounds too good to be true, then then there's probably another side. And if you are the curious type, then you will want to know before you step into there, or you're the crazies type and then you just say well, we'll see when question there when when you transition. So you mentioned you had some put your feet into art a little bit and programming. And you had been you had been a product owner for a while. You mentioned it, but I have your profile open on the left on the left, and I can see I see your product owner for a couple years. How did you approach asking questions? You mentioned you you reached out to people? What question did you ask to start putting your feet into this entirely? Or maybe not completely new Val New World and and start asking the questions that you needed to be asking. You see what I mean?

Marjorie Aubert 18:03
Yeah, I actually I don't think at the beginning. My first question for developer was okay, could you explain to me your, your daily life? And I How do you become a developer dev developer? What was your dream at the time when you chose it? And after? Is it going good or not? And I really would like to understand the reason they say made their choice and the things they're not really completely agree with and the things they're not completely How can I say that? There are products and yeah, I really would like to understand their story because when I do some advice in professional risk Dieker you you go so better you understand the real reason you know just not the first you you talk to people like that who I do that I was passionate so I do that but really deep inside what you you if you have in your heart that you decide to do that or that no relation.

Tim Bourguignon 19:33
I like that you approach it from the story angle obviously. That's my thing. I really like this approach of okay, I don't know what I should be asking. So let's start by asking you what you think and then what brought you to there and how I like this delta approach thing. Okay. What did you think it would be and how is it really? What's what's the difference? There? It's highlights also, what people didn't expect. And maybe they don't highlight too much. It's about that that's a good approach to really start digging and understanding where what questions you actually should be asking. And at some point, maybe understand what is the difference between a web developer and a data analyst, and a product manager? or project manager? What's what is what and what will be most likely my thing, although you never know, if you really made it, but start finding the question you should be asking is always hard. And I find that still, when you don't have the right words, when you don't know what you don't know, it's always hard to start finding where to scratch.

Marjorie Aubert 20:40
Yeah, I completely agree with that. But to give you an example, when I was an advisor, I, I some example, in my mind's eye, I was just really surprised between the reality of the facts and the reality of the heart. And to give you one example, I remember an old man talking to me, he gets involved in ecology, because you would like to protect the environment because they're around no bird in this countryside. And it was really loud, Eli us because he is completely I don't know the word when you can't listen to well. Yeah. But yeah, and so you have birds everywhere. And you say, Oh, it's just kindled? Or there's no bird. And so I would like to get you out and do my part. And yeah, and sometimes it's I found really fascinating. Just listen and observe. And you will understand the difference between what you like and, and what you wish and the reality.

Tim Bourguignon 22:05
I hope you didn't see that kind of dissonance when you were interviewing, interviewing developers asking them for something and then they were describing that kind of mismatch between what they were expecting and why they went into it and what they were doing nowadays? Did you find them?

Marjorie Aubert 22:22
No, no, no. Just to illustrate, sometimes you you have something in mind and you and you found some totally something else?

Tim Bourguignon 22:32
You do, indeed, you don't need. So you were asking around, getting advice on career transition from magazine and then asking yourself, Is this true and asking around? What is the reality of it? So how did that go after Right?

Marjorie Aubert 22:47
Um, I have to read I have a global picture. I know I, I, I want to jump into it. But I was always in my mind. You have to try. New maybe No, maybe no. And my friend and family were very supportive on my projects. And I yeah, I think I'm very lucky to have them in my life. And you know, sometime you need a little fish, I think and make some crazy choice no matter what. So yes, I say, just go for it. You will see. So life is sometimes strange. So yeah, you just have to try. So I signed up for a bootcamp to become a web developer. And it was really amazing. I discovered that I like God much more than I imagined at first. So yeah, it was the best choice I can do. I think,

Tim Bourguignon 23:53
how did you find which bootcamp to all first of all, if you should go into a boot camp or something else? What would be right for you? And then which boot camp would be right for you? How do you figure that out?

Marjorie Aubert 24:06
I'm actually some people reckon recommend me do boot camp I choose. So I say okay, I have good feedback. So here we go. And I wasn't sure if I have to do a bootcamp or longer training but I do at first I just would like to confirm it's it's a job for me. So I think okay, a boot camp. It's good to start and after we will see so it was really baby step philosophy.

Tim Bourguignon 24:48
But still, even if it was a baby step, did you envision Okay, now I'm stepping into this thing and and I'm really committing for a first job or a second job and really getting into it. I always it's really, okay, let's do this bootcamp and then maybe come back to my former job or do something else I really, but I'm still not sure. How was it?

Marjorie Aubert 25:13
Actually, I, in my brain a took a lot of time to say maybe, maybe not, maybe that's fine. I should I should

Tim Bourguignon 25:24
quit your job enrolled in the bootcamp. And

Marjorie Aubert 25:27
there you go. Yeah.

Tim Bourguignon 25:31
Awesome. So first

Marjorie Aubert 25:32
as before, it's really long, but after it's okay. I know what they want. So good.

Tim Bourguignon 25:39
So it was three months. Okay. Six months?

Marjorie Aubert 25:43
Three months? It's really short. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think he's more or lesser first varnish, because you, you still have everything to learn after that.

Tim Bourguignon 25:59
Did you? Did you realize that before enrolling? Sure. Future back then

Marjorie Aubert 26:06
I'm actually I study Ruby. So I was thinking at the time, I will continue in Ruby, but I found my team commits. Really? I don't know it's sometime life with your little gift. And you say, Okay, I go. We work in TypeScript. So I didn't imagine at the time I have to relearn a new thing. So yes, but it's, it's just go so fast. Actually, I finished my bootcamp, I found my company and I had to restart. And yeah, I just to keep in the flow. Too much.

Tim Bourguignon 26:56
I'm sure you're doing a lot of thinking. More than you that you allow yourself. How do you approach finding your first job after a bootcamp? How did you approach that?

Marjorie Aubert 27:11
It wasn't easy, because you know, you aren't on the market with other developer who have spend, or there's 3d on the field. So it's competitive. And so I always present myself as Bruker version. I, I was really okay with that. And I really say I can brought other skills that my drive before. Yes, listen to people, product owner and things like that. So I think I present myself more or less like I don't know the word couteau, Swiss. Swiss lack of

Tim Bourguignon 28:00
training, I think, yes, we started. Oh, Jack. So it's been a little bit of reversing and being able to help right and left and fluidify a lot of things. And at the same time, while you're learning this, this developer, Journey ramp up. So easy as the the onboarding eases the work around you, etc. That what you mean?

Marjorie Aubert 28:27
Yeah, it's that what I mean? Because I know I can learn different things and be okay with that. And I, I know, I can keep I know, I stay motivated, even if it's hard. So it's really this philosophy. I put in interviews and not my hard skill. Because, to be honest, I know that I have everything to learn. I had everything to learn at the time.

Tim Bourguignon 28:58
Well, that's a good approach, knowing you will learn everything again in a year and again in two years. So let's, let's advertise that. Committee is the company you found right after the boot camp, and you're still with them now. That's great.

Marjorie Aubert 29:15
Yeah, yeah, it's great. I joined my team last summer. So it's nine months ago now. So it's really recent.

Tim Bourguignon 29:26
Okay, now I have to bring I usually try to avoid doing this but I bring some information that you the listeners don't know. You're going to be a you were at Devoxx last week, talking on stage and you will be on stage at New crafts in a couple weeks from now. After nine months into your first job. who's pushing you what is pushing you so how did that come to me? That That is insane.

Marjorie Aubert 29:56
Yeah, maybe I I can explain to you the story behind that.

Marjorie Aubert 30:05
In December, all of my team was talking about CFP, for the for these years, and my colleague are really involved and speaker in campsite to RENNtech in Devoxx, and other conference, and they all plan to propose subjects. So naturally they're asked me what subjects I was going to topic. And I first I was okay. Are you serious? Are you really asking the question, because I haven't enough experience. And I don't know enough about a technical subject to talk about it. And I will feel like an impostor. So then I reflect on what's had the most impact on my thoughts. And I remember all the encounters I made, I've been really decisive to their and find my place as developer. So yes, they made a huge difference. And I really thankful for that. I was surprised by their kindness and willingness to share the stories that were said, were all fascinating, and some time, you know, a few minute can have really huge impacts. And in my case, it was so. So talking about work was a strong axis in my former work, so I decided to try and offer a feedback with my junior cup. And I propose in Devoxx, and new graph, and I was really surprised because I have been selected. So I say, Well, this is really amazing. It's a new aspect of my journey, I started and I feel really grateful for that.

Tim Bourguignon 32:14
So you're gonna talk about how you became a developer or how the first year was onboarding is.

Marjorie Aubert 32:22
Actually, it's, I talk about the practice of my team, because when I joined commit my current team, I didn't know what to expect at all. Of course, I started I watch video on exact channel architecture, TDD, DDD, extreme programming, that my team is advised me, but I never practice. So. Yeah, I had no other experience as a developer. So it was more or less like, a blank page for me. So I had to write from scratch. And this explains that, from my point of view, so the way we work was the norm, it was no more. And at the beginning, I didn't necessary realize the difference between my daily life and the daily life of other developer. We didn't practice craft more than extreme programming. So it was a topic I would like to bring how a junior developer can be happy and find a place in an environment with extreme programming and mob everyday. Because we we mob, seven day a day, if it's always we are always together. And yeah, it was. Yeah. I don't know pizza answer the question. Yeah.

Tim Bourguignon 34:06
So yeah, I hear you're describing this this way of working that you discovered at comment, which at first you thought is the norm? And at some point, you realize, no, it's not. And so it's XP, it's a lot of more programming. So really, the whole team coding on with one keyboard all at the same time speaks to you there's a there's an orchestration rounded with Navigator and a driver, etc. All the team is navigating and there's a drive away. And you thought there was no home and at some point, you realize, no, it's not. And then you started looking at this, this divide between okay, what other people have as a daily life, what I have is it's so much different. Is it different to start as a newbie in this role in this context, etc. And you're nodding right now, so I think I'm kind of writing when I'm describing. Okay, yeah, that's interesting. That's interesting. I remember Have a discussion with with leveling Falco, who is one of the one of the founders of more programming. And he was describing, it's exactly with the goggles of a newbie, saying, more programming is actually fascinating for newbies because they get to see how everything is made, they get to see the decision process. There's nothing hidden in the background. And suddenly your senior comes up and say, Well, I just did this, it works fascinating. Period, we're done. No, everything gets done in front of them. And I remember from him vividly, where he said, Well, when a junior person has an idea, and I know, already, my gut feeling is saying this is a wrong idea. And it's not going to work. We're going to do it anyway. Because I want the junior person to see how I approach not killing his or her idea. But but showing them how I approach finding out if it's the right one or not really seeing all the steps and then learning from it. And this is a learning experience for the whole team. And And the fascinating and I want to do this. So when when you while you were describing this, you were describing it as maybe it's a weird place to be for newbie, and I was thinking the opposite, saying that's the best place to be for newbie.

Marjorie Aubert 36:13
Actually, I totally agree with that. I think it's the best best, best best place to be a newbie, because I learned so fast. And as you describe it, you you try and you see you failed. And you understand why. And you have another way to do that. And it's really challenging. But I think, yeah, I love the way we work. Because I learned Yeah, I learned so fast. And it's I think you have benefit for both sides. Because I know my senior colleague said, it's interesting, because you always ask us, why'd you do that in that way? Why you always have this problem in that way. And it's also interesting to challenge our routine. So yeah, it's, I think it's really a good thing for for the above site, new and older developer.

Tim Bourguignon 37:17
Asking questions in this context.

Marjorie Aubert 37:20
Sorry.

Tim Bourguignon 37:21
Is it easy asking questions in this context?

Marjorie Aubert 37:26
Is it actually is it because we have the environment for that? When it's a new topic, I always talk first, so I have no BRS around me. So I can go through my, my thinking and after my senior Calais talk, so yeah, I feel very free to ask my question. Even they're so weird. weeders Yeah, yeah. It's okay. Because actually, at the beginning, I was asking, I think 10,000 Question by day. And today, I'm still asking 1000 Question by day. motivator, but, you know, they are very patient with me, and I think it's a venue to have a great mob session to feel free for everyone, to excretion.

Tim Bourguignon 38:28
Indeed, I really like this process of saying, okay, the junior most person is going to speak first. Because we want to see, oh, that's what that's why I understand. We want to see where you're at. And get at this level and start from there so that you get the whole story and not assume you're somewhere your your knowledge level is somewhere and start there and leave you figuring out the rest or figuring out that you're not where we expected you to be and raise your hand at the right time, which is obviously always late, etc. So really get get down there's not the right the right word, but really get get down to where you're at and start from there. I love it. I really love it. That's a really good thing. I'm gonna reuse that.

Marjorie Aubert 39:09
So perfect. So yeah, that's

Tim Bourguignon 39:13
engineering hearing. I'm hearing you're still the junior most person on the team.

Marjorie Aubert 39:18
Yeah, I still today. And I always spend also more time on the keyboard for the same reason. Because if it's too fast, I can stop and say okay, I and I don't understand what you mean and where you are going. So it's easier for everybody to to have the right. You know, speed code. Yeah,

Tim Bourguignon 39:46
sure. Sure. How long have you mobbing everything you bring?

Marjorie Aubert 39:54
Yeah, actually we remove all all day. So Seven hours, I think. Yeah, we do. But we know that it's really important to have a break each hours because it's really challenging and the fatigue, is there really a pain point? And you have to free your brain? After some, some time, yes.

Tim Bourguignon 40:23
And I'm stealing your lunch break, so you won't have a break. And you're gonna go back right into your mob without having your break. Oh, damn, now I feel guilty. But I guess that's the place where I wanted to, to start wrapping up. And I promised I would I would come back to something you said at the beginning. One of the big changes that you realize between this biology world that you had, and then the IT world you stepped into, was this divide between? Not everything is possible. And you have to find out what is possible and what is not. Everything is possible. And now you have to find out which of the everything you're going to pick? Did you get to terms with us?

Marjorie Aubert 41:06
When you say did you get to terms, it's what exactly what?

Tim Bourguignon 41:10
Are you comfortable with that now, with this change that happened in your life?

Marjorie Aubert 41:15
Yeah, I'm comfortable. And I didn't split my life in two parts, actually, there are really merged into one. And I loved the way I think in biology field and the way I think in more tech fields, actually, I have made bridges between biology and web development. To give you an example, at the beginning, it wasn't easy for me to represent. For example, functions. So I was thinking, okay, function eyes, like enzyme in biology, and class is more or less mitochondria. Because, you know, meter country, yeah, always convert ADP into ATP. And they have internal tools. So I used to say it's, we've made thoughts. So it's maybe strange, but yeah, I really like a mix them up.

Tim Bourguignon 42:22
You should write this down, at some point, introduction to programming for biologists, and reusing this metaphor and really digging me into this metaphor and explaining things the way you understood them. And the way it helped you get into their that. I love it.

Marjorie Aubert 42:42
Did you love it? Because sometime I was thinking, Okay, this is a little bit crazy in my head. But it's easier to understand and to remember, think, because you have a lot to learn at the beginning. So yeah.

Tim Bourguignon 42:59
I have to remember that. That's something that was given to me at the beginning, we talked about the imposter, feeling like an imposter. And when I was pushed into public speaking as well, I had the same reaction saying, I have nothing to say, I'm new into this. I don't know. And so what why, and what was said to me was, but you're going to see it differently. You're going to see it in a way that is going to help someone, this person has heard it twice or three times already. And this just didn't connect with them. And now you're going to say differently, and it's going to work. And just because of that you should be speaking. And that was the time I said Oh, okay. It's been 10 years, and I'm still doing it. Awesome. I really loved this discussion. That was really fun. I usually ask for an advice. But I think the last piece wasn't advice in itself. So that's, that's, I guess that's wrap. It's been fantastic. And thank God, we have you in our industry now and at the conference to speak about more programming. Looking forward to that. Where would be the best place to start a discussion or continue this discussion with you?

Marjorie Aubert 44:10
Feel free to send me message on LinkedIn or on Twitter. I will love to answer you. It will be my pleasure. And I hope you have found some tips in in this conversation. And you enjoyed it. And thank you so much for having me on your podcast. Thank you for your work because it's really essential when you start and thank you to our listeners. Have a wonderful day.

Tim Bourguignon 44:39
Fantastic. That's a wrap. This has been another episode of depth journey. And we'll see each other next week. Bye. Thanks a lot for tuning in. I hope you have enjoyed this week's episode. If you liked the show, please share rate and review. It helps more listeners discover stories So you can find the links to all the platforms to show appears on on our website, Dev journey dot info slash subscribe. Creating the show every week takes a lot of time, energy, and of course money. Will you please help me continue bringing out those inspiring stories every week by pledging a small monthly donation, you'll find our patreon link at Deaf journey dot info slash donate. And finally, don't hesitate to reach out and tell me how this week story is shaping your future. You can find me on Twitter at @timothep ti m o th e p corporate email info pet dev journey dot info