Software Developers Journey Podcast

#70 Jeeva Nadarajah's life of serendipity


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Jeeva Nadarajah 0:00
But the teacher pulled me up. And I still remember her name's Dabashi Rao and she said, I don't think you can get 100% on this test. And just because she pulled me up in class and kind of gave him embarrassed me, I had to go and get 100%. And that's kind of interested. And it's been a wonderful journey since everything just like clicked. It was just magic. I didn't have to try hard, but at the same time I there was just this beauty in writing code and seeing the bits and bytes come out, and

Tim Bourguignon 0:45
Hello, and welcome to developer's journey. The podcast shining a light on developers lives from all over the world. My name is Tim Bourguignon, and today, I received Jeeva nada Raja Jeeva began a career in advertising in Sri Lanka. After she completed her master's degree in Information Systems, her journey immersed her in a child's software methodologies as a programmer, where she became responsible for teams products and software delivery. This year, this very year, she launched her own company serendip, which provides a community platform for companies to connect with technologists. And I hope we're going to hear about this today. Jeeva Welcome to dev journey.

Jeeva Nadarajah 1:35
Oh, hello, Tim, thank you for having me.

Tim Bourguignon 1:38
You bet your states that your career started in either tising. But as I understood your developer's journey started before this, right?

Jeeva Nadarajah 1:48
Yes, it did. It started in grade 11. We call it grade 11. And in the United States, we call it junior year, when I decided to take computer science as one of the courses. So I started with Fortran and basic,

Tim Bourguignon 2:05
what led you to taking Fortran classes in grade 11.

Jeeva Nadarajah 2:10
That was the introduction to computer science at the time. And the fact is, I wanted to take the easiest classes, there was stuff that was as easy as possible for me to pass the grades. Math was easy for me. So I took math, and I thought computer science is going to be so new, this was way back in 1988, I'm going to quickly age myself. But so I thought, Oh, this is just so new, everything's going to be super easy. I'll be like, breaking into new areas, and teachers won't exactly know how to teach. It'll all be easy. And I was goofing around in class. Because at the time, my interest was more in, you know, hanging out with my friends and playing all the sports, they have us. And the teacher pulled me up on one of my first tests and said, You know, I doubt you can get hundred percent on this class. I don't think no matter how hard you try, I don't think you're going to do it. India is a very competitive place. You know, although I was brought born in Sri Lanka, I went to school in India, because of, we had some ethnic issues going on in Sri Lanka, I had to leave the country. But and it's a very competitive landscape. If you don't do well, in class, your thought of you know, you're get this black mark. But because my parents were back in Sri Lanka, I didn't think a black mark really mattered too much to me. But the teacher pulled me up. And I still remember her name is Giovanni Rao. And she said, I don't think you can get 100% on this test. And just because she pulled me up in class and kind of gave him embarrassed me, I had to go and get 100%. And that's kind of. And it's been a wonderful journey. Since everything, just like clicked. It was just magic. I didn't have to try hard. But at the same time, I, there was just this beauty in writing code and seeing the bits and bytes come out. And yeah, just began there.

Tim Bourguignon 4:32
It's amazing how teachers can can just pull your strings and you don't realize it at that point. And you just run away, run along with it and do exactly what they wanted you to do in the first place. Yes,

Jeeva Nadarajah 4:45
she quickly became my favorite teacher. And I realized very quickly, right, she had done that.

Tim Bourguignon 4:53
That's amazing. But then, the next question is, of course, why did you pursue a career in Advertising first and not going to computer science right away.

Jeeva Nadarajah 5:03
Yeah. So computers, I went back to Sri Lanka, right after I did my undergrad in mathematics statistics and a minor in computer science, I went back to Sri Lanka. And my degree was in mathematics. But in our house, we didn't, we didn't have a computer. We basically, I had two options, I could become a teacher, or I could work for someone and do accounts, you know, go into the financial line. And I wasn't really interested in finance, I wanted to, I wanted to just work and see what what a regular job would be like, before I decided, you know, to track into one of these streams, I definitely didn't want to be a teacher, I didn't think I had the patience for students. So. So advertising is a was a really easy way to get in. I joined this company called Q and E as an account executive. So basically, computers wasn't a thing there wasn't there were no programming jobs in 1993. in Sri Lanka, how was I don't know how it was in Germany, or France. I

Tim Bourguignon 6:22
really well, I'm gonna out myself in the other direction in 1993. I was

Jeeva Nadarajah 6:28

Tim Bourguignon 6:30
I don't really know, what the landscape really looked like.

Jeeva Nadarajah 6:36

Tim Bourguignon 6:38
Okay. But that makes sense. Then, then my next question would be, how long did you did you stay in this in this career path? And what decided you then to at some point to, to, to go back to computer science?

Jeeva Nadarajah 6:52
Um, yeah. I, I basically went to school for I mean, sorry, when I was in advertising for maybe a year, year and a half, I did really well, I was promoted to run the audio visual department and launch rather large brand brands in Colombo, including Pizza Hut, which is just great. My whole family could eat for free. But, you know, Sri Lanka has a bit of sort of, you know, South American culture, in that, you know, we have a bit of Portuguese influence, and a bit of Island culture. And I was 2021, running these really large accounts. And I don't think I had the professional maturity to handle, you know, men who were in powerful situations, who were who would kind of tease you at times. And it bothered me too much when it came to client servicing. And none of that was you know, none of that was too bad. Nobody was too crazy, but I just didn't have the patience for it. I wanted to start focusing on my Masters, even though I had a great job. And if I had stuck with it, that would have been very successful, for sure. But I didn't have the patience for it. I wanted to hit become more academic and being a more professional environment, maybe hang out with nerds. So, so yeah, that's what really made me apply to schools in America to do my masters. Does that make sense?

Tim Bourguignon 8:40
Absolutely. And how did you did it work out with applying in in the US?

Jeeva Nadarajah 8:45
Yeah, I got into the University of Indiana University and a couple other schools in Indiana. I ended up moving to Eastern Michigan for a full scholarship for my Masters plus a graduate assistantship. So that worked out really good. I got a stipend. I did my Master's in Information Systems and also ended up living close to another way I am right now. That worked out really well Tim

Tim Bourguignon 9:18
across the world and then found found your nest that's cool. Yeah, I'm gonna take a very short, short tangent for a bit. How was it going across the globe? And going from from India slash Sri Lanka and leaving probably your whole family behind and going to to the US as a 23 something if I counted right?

Jeeva Nadarajah 9:42
Perfectly, right. Yeah. It it was I was in a high so going back to 1993 94. in Sri Lanka, picture a world with no internet. I would go to the British Council library and pick up these facts books to get information on schools here. Write to them, you'd have to wait for two weeks for the letter to reach them. And then you'd have to call them at midnight. So you can speak to somebody. And then two weeks again for for them, if they responded immediately, you're looking at at least a month before you get any communication back. So it was an interesting world that we lived in. But I also came from a country that had literally kicked me out. And I took that very personally, I could not, because I was from the Tamil community, I had this feeling of homelessness, honestly, I didn't feel like I belonged in Sri Lanka, I didn't feel like I belonged in India, becoming very psychological. But I was looking for my new home. You know, I'll talk about my family composition later, if that's of any interest, but I was the last of nine kids. And five of my brothers and sisters are adopted, my parents are amazing, like these hippie people who just so amazing, I can't, can't say enough good things about them. I wanted to get it, I knew that I had an edge in being able to study and I had an edge with engineering and technology, I just loved that part of, you know, just knowing knowledge, and just being able to read and understand and explore and keep challenging your boundaries, which I think my parents had it too, but because they didn't go to school, they didn't have the opportunity to go beyond grade eight and 10. They didn't get the chance to explore that side. But I think all my siblings, all of us share that amazing, you know, kind of thirst to hunger to keep learning. And so I thought, you know, Sri Lanka doesn't have that kind of, it didn't have that kind of attraction for me, I read ein Rand, I had this fascination for the capitalist mindset, is what I'm trying to say. If you're good at something, you can make dreams come true. You know, really, like eating up on that dream. And so for me, America was like the land of the dream to come true. And I I don't think I would have been able to express that this this well, not that I'm doing it well, right now. But it that was the thing for me is I need to go find my home, where I can be my authentic self. And I'll be accepted. And I, you know, I flourish in this new home. So yeah,

Tim Bourguignon 12:58
awesome. What comforted you in that the stream was was indeed the right dream for you. When you arrived in in the way people talk to you in the way people Welcome to you in the way you were. You were including communities. How did this work out?

Jeeva Nadarajah 13:13
And the first interaction I had was, I believe it was in the Social Security Office. And you know, you get a token and you wait, your turn, and you go up and they talk to you, they smile at you and they they talk to you like they speak to everybody else. It doesn't matter what color you are what, what how well you speak English or what clothes you wear, or you know what car you drive. I hadn't seen that kind of equality anywhere. Like I'd Okay, I lived only in India and Sri Lanka. But that, that equality, that respect that they gave me and everybody else in the room. That's what really like, felt made me feel like I was home. Because in India and Sri Lanka, I was treated great because I spoke English and I dressed fairly well. But all around me, I saw people not being treated well, people abusing their power and things like that. I don't want to get into too much of it. But I'm just to know all these things like bug me.

Tim Bourguignon 14:27
That makes sense. Um, so you started your your your master's degree, did it click right away? Was was it right away? Finding back this, this computer science world that you left for two years,

Jeeva Nadarajah 14:40
I would say it was not right away. It was not right away at all. I found certain classes very difficult and boring and not interesting. But when there was a business element to it, and when there was actual coding involved, where you're writing lines of code, and you're seeing Become a part of something bigger, and you're solving a certain problem, then it was fun. So what I'm trying to say is theory theory I was it was not as interesting to me as the practical stuff. So once I finished my master's and I started working, was when I really, you know, the the adrenaline, that kind of holly you get from, from writing code, and you're hammering away, and you don't know how to figure this out. And then you figure it out. And it comes to you in a shower, it comes to you during a ping pong game. And you, you know, you make beautiful things happen in that that actually means something in the real world. That's when it started. Really, like I loved coding I loved. I think it was Borland c++, that my first language in the US was that I loved coding. And I knew I wanted to do that. But I won't say that I knew that computer science was going to be the ultimate thing for me. In school. I enjoyed c++ and coding, but I wasn't sure that I, I wanted to have a more control over like the business outcome as well. I wanted to be part of that team that designed and designed the solutions.

Tim Bourguignon 16:26
Were you able to steer in this direction right away when you after you've graduated? No, not at all.

Jeeva Nadarajah 16:35
I? Well, let me think about that. I, I was lucky enough to volunteer in Ann Arbor. And with this company called Menlo innovations, they had a program where every Wednesday, you could go and volunteer in their basement and write code for a nonprofit. So I did that, I believe for about a month or two. And they would run everything, they used Extreme Programming practices, and they would run everything is kind of an agile project. And then, two months into it, they hired me, they asked me if I would be interested in a Java project. And I got to go upstairs and work on a real project. That was wrong. You know, even though you learn all these things in school, you don't really know how everything fits. And what's it what's a good design? And how are the different environments working? How do you how do you integrate between these environments, if you don't know any of that. And I hadn't really written any, any code on the side, everything had done was related to school. I don't feel like I had the practical knowledge that I needed, you know, to go in and really contribute in the first first year of working somewhere. But because Menlo had this pairing practices, and my pair programmer was way more skilled, then I Boss, I feel like I was able to contribute. Otherwise, I would have been stumbling for at least three, three or four months before I could have done anything I think. Did that answer your question?

Tim Bourguignon 18:32
Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And what do you think the company so in you, that encouraged them to own to hire you even though you were not, as you said, ready to contribute right away?

Jeeva Nadarajah 18:45
I think they saw that I was listening to problems and asking questions and trying to understand the business problem that I was my communication was good. And I had interest I just showed up, I just kept showing up. I don't I don't I don't think I was horrible. I mean, I I knew how to code. But I could have done a lot more. Like kids these days are doing a lot more in school than I feel like I did in school, is what I'm saying. And I think it was must have been my communication skills and, and just willingness to learn. So that's what they saw.

Tim Bourguignon 19:31
on me, maybe we not that I want to try to cute but we overestimate what, what people are doing and underestimate our own skills. When I look at my colleagues, I always you're without doing so much. But when they start highlighting all the things I do, I sometimes have to realize, oh, okay, I'm doing a lot as well, but it sounds like fun. It's not work. It's fun what I'm doing so it doesn't count and

Jeeva Nadarajah 20:02
It's quite possible, I hope.

Tim Bourguignon 20:05
But it's kind of amazing that your first and employment started right away with XP practices. Yeah, this is worth millions. Did you realize this at that time,

Jeeva Nadarajah 20:18
I did not realize how rare XP was because it was the first place that I went to. And they looked cool. I didn't realize how, how waterfall practices and how places with waterfall, like how different places with waterfall practices were. I didn't get to consult. After that for like, I think it was six or seven years before I actually consulted in other enterprise organizations. So I didn't really know how lucky I was that I had gotten to the right. I had gotten into the right culture. Right off the bat. I just thought rest of the world operated like this, even though I had read Kent, Beck's book, The What is it? Something are running the asylum. The lunatics are running the asylum or something it's called. It's about Extreme Programming. And I didn't realize that. The rest you know that it's, you know, it's been 15 years. And it's still not very common.

Tim Bourguignon 21:29
That is true. Sadly. So, and I see so many so many development teams running running Scrum, nowadays, trainings from from an organization perspective, and not running the technical part of Scrum, which kind of would be the XP part. And getting away from the technical practices and then doing the the organization practices on me, which is killing them. And yes,

Jeeva Nadarajah 21:56
yes. When I talk to clients, I often ask them when you say you're agile, what do you mean by that? Because I feel like that word is thrown around so much. And overused. What it means to me is so different from what it means to them. And often I hear people say, we, you know, we agile because we do stand ups, and we we demo a product, but you for me agile is how often are you pushing to production. Really, that's what determines how agile you are in, you know, in trusting your own code and being able to say, say, there's this process that we can, you can all of us can contribute to the product by writing some code and just checking it in and the framework will let us know if something goes wrong. That's pretty rare.

Tim Bourguignon 22:59
It is it is. So let's fast forward a few years, tell us with what you do.

Jeeva Nadarajah 23:04
So now. Now I have surrendered, which is the company that I founded in March this year. And the reason I started this company was because I've always had a soft spot for programmers and designers. I, I believe that people who do good work should have a great quality of life and be able to interact with clients and, you know, contribute towards real business outcomes. So the other thing is, as I say, I was a consultant, I became a sales engineer after a few years of consulting. And I found that it's a large organizations, you have these layers of infrastructure that we've put in place, just so we can scale the company and increase our profit margins. But what that does is it It weighs down on the people doing the work so so you can't, you can't engage with clients unless they're huge and can afford to bring in your massive teams. You can't solve smaller problems for clients, you can't really use the technologies that you want the client to use, because the client is you know, stuck with a certain framework, all these kinds of issues. So I wanted to start serendip so I could bring these interesting projects to the people who are actually doing the work. And I don't want to have any middle management. Want to have a really flat organization where designers and engineers can work directly with the client and and You know, just help them accomplish their goals. And I kind of provide the framework for that. So some might, you might call it like I'm a, I'm I work on a commission sales, independent sales consultant. But I would say I'm a little more than that, because I'm not interested in the one time commission, I want to establish myself as a client success engineer, as well, as consultant success engineer, I want to know what other projects that consultants enjoy working on, and why they enjoy it, and then bring those kinds of opportunities. So when I spoke to, I spoke to about 40, consultants and boutique consulting firms, you know, small, they have maybe 10 people working. And most of them were like, Oh, you know, we're so busy delivering the work, we can't, we don't have the time to go and find the next next opportunity or the bandwidth to do that. So I'm like, well, let's try to figure out, maybe that's where I play. So I started surrended. And I've been doing this for six months, 556 months now,

Tim Bourguignon 26:09
did it? Did I get this right? So what you're trying to do is kind of become a hub for, for this kind of, of mindset ID clients and and consultants that are searching exactly for for this kind of, of once a joint venture is sort of the German word is coming to my mind. So somehow about

Jeeva Nadarajah 26:34
cooperation. It's like a community. I would say it's when you when you so when you join the Saran VPN community, what I see is a trusted group of technologists who will do the right thing for the client. So I want to bring as many people who are interested to know this community as possible, and then just let that let that happen, right? Because I want to be known as a senior go to if you need technology to be built, talk to talk to Jeeva. talk to somebody from the surrended community because they have all this rich group of people who can consult for you. And you know, figure out what's a good fit for them, because some of them want Java, some of them want mobile application. Some of them want dotnet. Some of them want just marketing. Some of them want branding, some of them want a cyber security person, a data scientist, but what what stage is your business in that it makes sense to bring that person? So I'm trying to become the expert to figure out what's the stage in what stage of business are you in? And who can help you support, support you through those business goals? Do let's get a user experience person to contract for you. And let's get this section built for a fixed cost before you explore other things. So does that make sense?

Tim Bourguignon 28:07
Yes, yes, yes, that's exactly where I wanted to come at. It's it's not just the community, it's also your own expertise in how to build product and, and the different phases of the of the product, product creation, and what is needed it for to to solve this corner case in this problem, and then bring the exact right person at the right time for them.

Jeeva Nadarajah 28:35
So this is a very, very loose, flat organization, where everybody's free to like, work with somebody else. surrended provides the I provide the support, if they want to go through surrended, I provide the support to do that. And but it's you know, it's just a way to just do good, you know, do good, and I believe good will happen.

Tim Bourguignon 29:05
So I have two questions. I'm not sure which one I should put first. Okay, let's go with this one. And so beside the consultants on all the teams you're working with, and beside the customers, and who are us, surrounding you, yourself with to help you on this journey, because it sounds like that would be a very, very special set of skills to be able to help you grow this this business.

Jeeva Nadarajah 29:32
Yeah. So I haven't really figured out how I will scale this business. But right now I'm tapping into what brings me joy, what is my superpower, and my superpower is connecting people. I have no inhibitions about approaching strangers and talking to them about challenges they might have or just getting to know them. So So that makes me a good fit for a salesperson. Right. And I, I also know enough about technology and the different stages of product development. And I have this huge community of people from my past life, working as a software engineer, I've been plugged into the TDD community. I've been plugged into sales communities. And and now the user experience community, that it's, it's all these people that provide the ammunition from have, you know, okay, the talent pool, but you're asking me who are who are some of my mentors who are supporting me? So it's that that comes from the sales angle that I bring, you know, if I, maybe this is when I talk about my father, chubby? Yes, of course. Okay. So my father PNG, was, if you go back to the bazaar, in Sri Lanka, and the hardware bazaar and asked people about PNG, people would know he who he was, he was one of the biggest connectors in the market in Sri Lanka. And, you know, when I was growing up, he single handedly put together 20 to 30 businesses. He would look at people he would identify their talent, it didn't matter where they came from, what what family cast, they you know, you have we have the caste system, cast they belong to what language they spoke, how they dress doesn't matter. What's his skill? What could he do? Well, can he can he write? Can he run the accounts for a business? Can he run the warehouse for the business? Can he run the logistics for a business, he would, he would put people together and form these partnerships and find, find a person, a landlord to host them, he would negotiate contracts for the space and set up the business, he would go to Korea and bring import things he would, he was such a great connector and dream maker. I would call him that because he saw these opportunities and he grew them. So when growing up, we would have wads of cash in our house just thrown in the drawer we'd have gemstones wrapped in beautiful white tissue and just thrown in a drawer even though we had this massive safe in our house, he would he would sometimes just be so careless and throw all this money in our house was robbed several times, my friends would come over and we'd go through the the cash, we would take stacks of money and like play counting the money when I'm seven, eight. It's crazy. But, um, the reason I'm saying this was you know, that would happen. And then there were other times when my mom would have to break her till 2pm to uh, to like pay the groceries to buy groceries. So it was like this up and down thing with, he was a businessman, I was the last in the family nine kids and Beaver, this is what life was like, for us. It was so so he was a great connector, just naturally born businessman and I for the first 48 years of my life, I thought I never want to run a business, I just want to just want to be employed have a steady income, have a roof above my house, having health insurance and all those good things. But you come to a certain point in your life and you learn that you have certain superpowers that nobody else has. And I not that nobody else has, but it just comes naturally to you which is not not everybody has that. And I saw that in me I I think my power to connect people find opportunities for them to engage in and be rewarded from you know, from a from a point of joy, as well as a good lifestyle healthy living. lifestyle is Yeah, is why I founded this company. So when I go out now and talk to people there have been so many people who've given me advice and who have shown me support and who believe in this dream and he want to have strategy sessions with me on who they can connect me with in the market to bring those clients over to the to surrender to you know, understand our philosophy. So it's a very exciting time and I certainly not doing this on my own. I don't think any of us are doing Anything we do on our own, I think it's just other forces, other people who have helped us through a career and pushed us forward, you know, small steps at a time. And here I am.

Tim Bourguignon 35:13
This is amazing. I have a big smile on my face because of all that you said in the past in the past 14 minutes. And kind of leads to this this is exactly this this is the apple didn't fall far from the tree seems to have inherited most of your father's way of thinking and networking and connecting people. And you brought the right mindset from the from the technical side, and you've dealt in it kind of each and every step of the of the production of software. And you kind of it's, it's amazing, everything is connected, just at the right spot, just right sweet spot for the business that you're creating today. That's amazing.

Jeeva Nadarajah 35:55
Yes. Yeah, even even when in the places that I've worked previously, people look at me and they are so happy for me, you know, and say, you know, you're you're going out and wanting to make this happen is still wonderful. And I'm very thankful that my family is here to support me through this and I have been blessed to try this out for two years. Three years. I don't know. We'll see how how far I can take it but that's that's what it is.

Tim Bourguignon 36:24
I wish you way more than three years. That's, that's, that's that's where it's way more than three years.

Jeeva Nadarajah 36:31
Well, we have to be, you know, what? A thin slice right? My first thin slice is two years, three years.

Tim Bourguignon 36:39
Exactly. Starting iterate, there's one step at a time. Okay, none of you we've reached reach today in the timeline. What advice would you give a newcomers you know, industry if you were to summarize, to strip down ever seen you, you learn today to one advice, what could that be?

Jeeva Nadarajah 37:01
I think my one piece of advice would be learned by doing, you know, do have your own project, have your own side hustle. Just do it, the everything is so accessible these days, that you can, you can go online and learn to code or run a business or try something but unless you practically try something out for yourself, in your own time, and use your mental ability and mental space to really think about the problem. That that is the learning through that is exponential. So I would say learn by doing is my advice.

Tim Bourguignon 37:48
Fantastic. And I would say plus one, definitely learn by doing just jump in the water, do something and you will learn 10 times as fast if not faster than that. Amen. Very, very wide. Thank you very much. We are reaching the end of the time already. So let's give the the audience a bit more ammunition where they can find you where they should continue this discussion etc etc. So let's start with the with the conducting you were with the right place B to come back to you and continue the discussion.

Jeeva Nadarajah 38:23
So the best way to contact me would be through surrended. There Our website is go surrended.com serendip is spelled s er e n di p or you can also contact me on twitter Jeeves online JES online. I'll add both links to show notes. So the listeners just scroll down and click on the links and you can get right there. Do you have anything coming up in the next months that you want to advertise? We are relaunching our brand. So splendid website is getting a new look. I'm going to be you know, I'm going to be on Twitter, LinkedIn on podcasts. I'm going to start my own podcast. Tim, you can give me all the advice.

Tim Bourguignon 39:12
Oh, you do? Oh, yeah, we definitely need to know.

Jeeva Nadarajah 39:15
So, um, so yeah, I've got so much coming up. But, um, you know, I definitely keep people posted. I don't have anything concrete other than the website. rebranding right now.

Tim Bourguignon 39:31
Do you have some kind of blog on ghost or indeed.com? Or where we can see some some use and follow up? what's what's coming up?

Jeeva Nadarajah 39:37
We are planning to have a blog. Yes. Right now the website is very basic. But I hired someone who Ian Gaiman. He's doing a great job on figuring out where I'm coming from. And yeah, we have building this surrended village as we speak. So hopefully That'll be up in a couple of weeks

Tim Bourguignon 40:02
with the time distortion of podcasting. It might, might even be up before the the podcast so so listeners, when you hear this, just go up there and see if it's out and And if it is, give us some feedback about what to do so and what you heard and start the discussion. Have fun. Thank you, Tim. Thank you very much. And this has been another episode of developer's journey, and we'll see each other next week. Bye bye. Dear listener, if you haven't subscribed yet, you can find this podcast in iTunes, Google music, Stitcher, Spotify, and much more. Head over to WWE WWF journey dot info. To read the show notes, find all the links mentioned during the episode. And of course, links to the podcast on all these platforms. Don't miss the next developer's journey story by subscribing to the podcast with the app of your choice right now. And if you like what we do, please rate the podcast, write a comment on those platforms, and promote the podcast and social media. This really helps fellow developers discover the podcast and do fantastic journeys. Thank you