Software Developers Journey Podcast

#71 Irwin Williams found his perfect career spot


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Irwin Williams 0:00
I looked at him, he looked at me like, I really tell me the two weeks of work he did for this presentation for the client in the other country is gone. I said yes. But then quickly said, I can fix it. Of course, we only need to learn with programming and sometimes it takes a long time to learn things. And once you learn it, implementing afterwards doesn't take that long.

Tim Bourguignon 0:33
Hello, and welcome to developer's journey. The podcast shining a light on developers lives from all over the world. My name is Tim Bourguignon, and today, I receive Erwin Williams. Ervin has been a professional software developer for more than 16 years. He is currently the chief software engineer at tell you systems in Trinidad and Tobago. Urban is also a member of the global communications and technology team of Congress, WP n where it provides insights in software architecture, and development support on a diverse set of human development initiatives. Irwin and his wife have two beautiful daughters who teach him every day, that journey is best when it is shared. And that's why I am very, very pleased to welcome you, Ervin to share your story on the dev journey podcast.

Irwin Williams 1:33
Hi, it's good to talk with you today. My

Tim Bourguignon 1:36
very pleasure, believe me. So let's get right in there. Um, I mean, where where did your journey into software development start in the first place?

Irwin Williams 1:45
I thought about this a little while Timothy. And I think it was a conversation with my grandmother way back when I was in what we call secondary school. She was asking me, what do you want to do. And in fact asking, I'm suggesting, as you know, family members do, maybe you should look at medicine, you should look at one of those, or we call here classical fields. And I was pretty sure back then that I liked computer science and I wanted to do computer science or programming. It was the same thing in my mind at the time. So in my secondary school, we had a number of options, but they weren't really strongly programming. So I had to wait a few years, until I started University. And that's when I think programming for me began in earnest. From the very first semester we're doing Hello worlds. And it's not like I felt, oh, I've met my calling. But I was pretty glad to be there and just soak up all the knowledge. And that led a particularly strong thrust during University for me in terms of getting my hands on any real programming I could. So while a lot of my contemporaries were focused on getting a job to help along with tuition on the jobs would have been very simple things, you know, Guest Services personnel working in a gym. My all my jobs on campus involve writing code, I build websites, I created Access databases, I explored how to use file processing stuff we learned in class to process XML documents. It was looking back at it, it was a lot of fun and stressful, but gratifying to get to apply stuff I was learning, literally the week before, into productive means for someone on campus or someone nearby. What attracted you to word programming in computer sciences Back then, I think before I settled on programming, I was interested in everything. I wanted to do a bit of architecture, I wanted to do law, I was interested in medicine, I liked, I liked the outdoors. And I feel as I kind of peel back what that really meant it. It meant I was interested in building things but also incidents telling stories and incident helping people solve their problems and incident things that challenged me and challenged my mind. And I realized that programming or computer science really provided a doorway to a lot of those things. So it was a combination of asking, answering the question of what to do for my career at a fairly young age, as well as things in pop culture, games like Pac Man or shows Washington television, those things will helping steer me towards the direction of writing software. Why do you think the other students didn't follow your lead and do the same thing as applying everything that you learned right away and try it out and, and do stuff with it? I it's a combination of things. One I didn't really do it out of some motive to only I knew I needed to work to support myself during University and I think I just was in the right place at the right time along with was asking the right sort of questions. So it, it's kind of hard to look back and Neal one thing down. But I remember one of the projects we had to do, it literally came about because I was in a room a lab will help him develop. And an engineer, the time or guy who was studying to engineering came around saying anybody wants to write code here. And it was for a project. And I was like, Sure, I'd like to get involved. That led me there. And in fact, one of the really funny stories is what in my second year, we had one of those class projects where you had to build a website to solve some problem. And we built a website to help solve campus accommodation problems. And but at the end, we did it, we got our marks, and I was remember being very angry, because our lecture was like 75%. And I thought this was, this was really good, I should have went much more than that. Although 75% was, was fairly well, fairly good. And after the semester was done, I went over to the guy who ran student accommodations for the university. And I said, Listen, I built a site to solve the problems. Why don't you pay me for the summer to do this, and implemented so you can have a better solution to what you have right now. At the time, students had to go into a room during working hours of 8am to 4pm. And they had to look through a really old notebook of accommodation information. And I offered instead to take what we had researched and understood and apply it to his problem. So students could access it anywhere online. And this is before the days of things like Google Maps. So I had to go to authorities in Trinidad to find actual digital versions of places, and upload a site. So you can see the place, I was a lot of fun to do. And so I didn't know, I think my friends didn't know he could have that much fun solving problems and getting paid for it, or just didn't need to pay. That's awesome, as absolutely awesome. So it seems like you said at the beginning, it didn't click right away. It was interesting, but it was not your passion, you were interested in many things. And now what you were just describing sounds like that. It wasn't the case anymore. It was something that clicked already. Do you remember when when it clicked, if it's the term we're using, um, it, I, you know, when you can do something, you're not very good at it. But you sort of have a sort of response that, hey, this thing, the computer's responding to me, in between the Hello worlds and writing to a file, which is what a lot of my assignments were, it's almost like we started start a relationship with the computer, this is at the university that sort of told me you're doing well, you, you understand this thing you can do, you can do even better at it. I kind of always had at least a strong push towards things like it, although it wasn't always confirmed that I would do sort of computer science at university, I did have a, an affinity for it. And I enjoy my classes in secondary school. So maybe it was a gentle slope at first in terms of interest, and will I do this or not. And when I finally got in, it was like, there's nothing else to do this is this is what I enjoy. I can agree with this fully. I think I live I live through this kind of the same pattern, actually, I came into university interested in a lot of things along with aeronautics. And, and I put the one finger into it first as a tool as a mean to an end. And slowly, it was a slippery slope. And I ended up being completely soaked up in into ice and programming. So I can understand what you're saying right now. That's cool. Okay, so So how did you study? go on from there? And how did you enter the the professional world, if I may, because you were working already on the site. So after university, I didn't quite finish properly at this. So I finished with my finish wasn't like you're done. And it was one of those really hard courses, but it must have mentioned is a course called design and analysis of algorithms. And I took the course probably three times Amanda grad. So it which is a kind of a hard thing for me in that when I know I like computer science and like programming and stand programming, which therefore means I should be successful at every programming course I meet. And at this particular one, I had to repeat and I hated that I felt like well, you probably are not as good as you think you are. So I needed to start working, quote unquote properly. So in my last year, this is the only question to do. So I started to work. And even in my early jobs, you can find yourself having computer science skills and programming skills, but end up doing something not related to that. So my very first job out of school, not yet finished school was something like network support. And then it was something like it support. And there was something like application support until one of my really good friends said, Listen, there's a place you can work, it can record all day, you should go they definitely, definitely should go there. And I applied, and I knew the guys and the people running it. And it turned out to be a place I'm still at, that's telling us systems. Wow. So it's been 16 years almost, in this company. 14. I started here in 2005. And it's more than 14 years now. Wow. Nice. Nice. What does Telia system do? Exactly. So tell us does a lot of stuff. When I joined, we were doing content management systems. So that's building sites with people based on our custom CMS we had built. Since then we expanded into doing SharePoint customizations and Microsoft SharePoint platform. But alongside that, we built our own interactive SMS platform. A lot of what we've built, have involved platform creations, I found Telos has been really good for me for building platforms. We built an SMS platform, we built a content management platform, we built a platform for law called record quick works. So being here TELUS as a lot more over the years to build software, many kinds of fears, fears, career solutions. And that, of course, is really good for someone who wants to write code. I haven't been writing code a lot the last few years, but I'm still near enough to need to run Visual Studio from time to time. We'll get today to that in a minute. And how did you did your start in Intel, yours look like and a rough house. Oh, not quite out of school, but still still fairly young and brash, and everything like that. So I thought I was on top of the world. Remember, I still haven't finished my course what are still best things to hit programming about. And one of my first projects, when it was real projects was to customize a SharePoint site for a client in another country. So my boss at the time was going to go deliver the presentation and on top of the site. So I spent, I wasn't familiar ship. But so I spent two or three weeks walking through steps to customize this thing using at the time, something called Microsoft Virtual PC, which was a kind of like VMware, but written by Microsoft. And I also wasn't familiar with that. So essentially, I come to work every day and do a little bit more in terms of understanding how to ship this site, and to get make it look really good. Literally two days before it was time to go. I was done with the customization. And I was really proud of myself, I showed it to my manager, he was similarly please. So now it was time to pack up so we could transport the solution. And up to that point, I had never closed the VM. Because remember, it's just two weeks of work in the platform. And I'm not thinking when I stuff things auto save for me all the time. So I thought this would being seen as it Yes, of course, I closed through to a PC, I just click the Close button, it's good to go. So my boss was like, Okay, now show me the thing. And I opened it up a few moments later, all my changes are gone. Two weeks of work, gone. And he needed to leave the following day, literally the following day to go to the country to present Ouch. So we kind of

Irwin Williams 13:53
I looked at him,

Irwin Williams 13:55
this is so painful to hear.

Irwin Williams 13:57
I looked at him, he looked at me like are you really telling me the two weeks of work he did for this presentation for the client and the other country is gone. I said yes. But then quickly said I can fix it. So I literally spent my first night doing an all nighter, restoring the work that I took two weeks to do. Of course, we only need to learn with programming. And sometimes it takes a long time to learn things. And once you learn it, implementing afterwards doesn't take that long. So that was my story. I literally spent the night re implementing the thing that I'd spend the weeks to build so that my boss could be able to demonstrate what he needed to demonstrate. The most amazing story for me. Yeah, it is definitely a bigger image with the most amazing part of this story for me was that my boss stayed with me. And he had time with two young kids and he still in the office. He does He didn't, he wasn't working on the solution. He didn't write any code. He was just in the office with me. He had ensure that food to eat when it was late at night, and he was just there. And that that was that stuff stays with you. As you can imagine, Tim, that stuff. It's what you remember in terms of how to deal with people or potential people feel safe, I feel like you can rely on it. So I did finish on time and he was able to present that is absolutely true leadership. Just stand by and make sure you you have everything you need, and know not to pressure you but to to show support. In everything you can that this is the definition of leadership. I think, you know what it did, it emphasized to me, what is at the core of telesis culture teleios is really strong and on, on having a really excellent culture, a culture that focuses on human development, and focuses on ensuring people have a safe place to build, both in terms of the work environment and who works there. And I think this was a few months into meeting at Stelios. So it was it was actions speaking much more longer than the words on the wall would speak. Tell us more about this culture at tell us how has it evolved over the years? And how did you manage to, to keep it as it as it was, or as it still is? So eleos is such a special place, I see that. And as I said TELUS focuses on human development. And that therefore means as much as we're interested in developing profitable solutions, and we're interested in making sure that people understand we can build excellent software, we don't want to sacrifice the development of our team members, is to get to go after short term goals. So we, we have a tagline that says we are here to write software to run the world. But knowing our local context, that in itself, is sometimes a challenging statement to help people realize that we can produce world class solutions from Trinidad and Tobago. But alongside that, we also say we are a company that puts players before profit. We're a business who subscribe to principles that are that we think are excellent that principles that speak to how you speak to your co workers and how you collaborate and how you share with each other. And so that's the kind of context that undergirds a lot of our work, a lot of what we go after, if you were to, to, to have a new colleague just coming out of university, tomorrow beside you on pairing with you and in working with you, how would you best try to to share this culture to this person? I think, I think storytelling is really good. So in fact, going back to that story of losing the work of two weeks, telling us actually codify that story. And they tell new developers that as part of orientation, Oh, nice. So we're open from the very beginning at at the interviews here telling us we let you know, the kind of company we are, we introduce a term that many of them would not have been aware of. It's called a kingdom business. We tell everyone coming here that we subscribe to principles you find in the Bible, and we're not ashamed of it. Yeah, we're open to that. And so developers have a choice, I didn't want to come to a place that says, treat each other with respect and with kindness and with consideration, be honest, and be wise and be helpful, or you don't. And so we start off kindness knowing that and when they come to care, more than like the head of the senior developer, who has been here for a while, and so they know the ropes. And so we ensure that tools are good to go. And they feel like they're in a place where they could learn. And then we offer them opportunities to express their own needs for understanding and the need for support. And let's let's let's hear back toward toward you and not not just your company, how did you do your role evolve over those 14 years, up to up to now. So if you told me back in 2005, you'd work at one place for so long, I would not ever give you a total out of thought. That's crazy. In my mind. There's a sort of this is sort of an itinerant, we programmers expecting it to be you need to be going all over the world going to different places, sampling various experiences. As it turns out, my career over the last 16 years has a lot to do that while staying here. And I did start off just writing code I had done building solutions for the web. And first of all, the demand that was placed on me here caused me to have to focus on different types of development that I wasn't aware of before windows development and writing services and expanding into the world. Solo from crud applications. So there's first an increasing demand for complexity that then causes me to have to learn new things about distributed systems and about storage, how to stop, I'll just store temporarily using random rapid access cues, and things like that. So it had to become very, very deep. So far as I got to implement my own version of the mind mine protocol that no one ever used, Tim, no one used it, but it was fun to spend time playing in that complexity. And it my rules evolved away from just writing code on the new track really well into becoming a part of a team, team leadership group. And we were involved in leading our first one team and helping lead the entire company around the issues around developer quality and developer excellence. And part of it expanded involve advocacy. So that we started something called Italians Code Jam. And I was part of the team and part of the team that helps drive Italian school drum machines. We go to universities and encourage students to write real code while at school, which I guess should sound familiar. And that that really represents kind of how I myself, I've grown through the various challenges and demands that what I've had to do here at TELUS, and even Sagittarius, how did you did you grow from an individual contributor to more like managing a team? How is the strategy for you, ah, it's interesting to use it in grow. Because I think there's a lot to be said, for the the I see the individual contributor who is really talented and focusing and becoming really, really good at his or her craft. And I think the skills of managing such an IC skills of managing other members of your team, they're very different. So growth, for me meant asking a lot of questions and learning, learning skills around empathy, skills around listening to people skills around observing the environment, which I got from people who I saw doing it before. So I would have spoken to my own company's leadership and spoken to my mentors outside of us. Just understanding how to think about people, because I've honestly found that is the biggest challenge in terms of having to lead teams, which is thinking someone else's shoes, and ask questions that they might ask and see what kinds of responses might come up. It's still I'm still learning that to be honest. And while I learn all the best things I learned, I have a share. And I hope it helps myself and others lead more effectively. You say? Do you have mentors outside of tell us? For sure, for sure. How did you meet them? Most of my mentors, I've met either at church or at community gatherings, community events. And these are guys in technology, who have similar journeys to mind. They're either involved in advocacy, or they're building companies. I've met a number of guys at the university. So what happened with me is, even after I finished undergrad, I mean connected to the university, right via coding competitions, or hackathons, or even teaching. I've taught back at my local university every now and again. And I've met people who are proven unwilling to share with me a this is probably something you should pay attention to. Or here's how to understand what's going on in the world right now. So it's been really nice spread of advice from people who have gone before me. And I'm really glad for that. Would you encourage every new graduate to seek out mentors like this? Definitely, definitely. And I know sometimes, even when fitness might feel like, Well, where do I go, I found another easy place, kind of a low hanging fruit around mentorship is places like Twitter. And things have changed a lot. Whereas before when I started, you didn't have ready access to professionals and people who are experts in the field. Now, if you are looking to understand where to go for advice, I personally found that people contributing on Twitter has significantly helped me see where things are going. And it's it's Twitter. So it's not as personal as a proper mentorship exercise should be, but it's much better than nothing. What arguments would you use to convince someone to seek out a mentor? I would ask if I'm talking to somebody who's new and ask what's your what's your side of the world how much it will do you know, and how much of the will do you know That you don't know. So essentially, I think, if I remember back then I had a sense that there was no problem I couldn't solve, because I had solved all the problems I had met. So it's a version of many more things to be aware of many more challenges to, to consider. So it may be that our guys or girls are really good developers, they're really good at writing code. But they're not aware of the challenges around developing career and knowing how to challenge themselves and how to test where they're going and ask themselves critical questions. And not only mentors, are they good at helping you ask yourself the right questions, I completely agree. I completely agree. But I find it hard to, to convince people that that mentorship is is such a booster for for your personal and professional life, that there's I think people kind of underestimate, even if they agree that is important is still underestimate how important it is. And I find it hard to find the right words to communicate this. So it's also why it's also why we've done something, I'll tell you a school job. And here's what I mean. The person who's now coming out with let's say they finished the whole degree, or they've done a boot camp, they tend to feel I know this thing that it did taught me in the boot camp, and they know it in the limited domain. Let's say it required you to build a sample project or build a one of those end of end of school projects that demonstrate you know, what, wherever, and you know what databases and you know about user management, it, we found it because of telesco jam, when you give students harder problems to solve, they realize the extent of their knowledge. And then they need to know. So it tends to be the case that once the person who prior to the engagement didn't think they needed mentorship have found problems that couldn't solve. Having already mentor to help answer some of those problems is really good, at least to point you in the right direction. I feel what happens to a lot of us is that without a mentor we we did, we don't know how to even begin solving some of the problems you meet. And we take a long time finding solutions that are meant to me more easily pointed you to if you had one of those at the disposal. Nice, nice way to put it. I would like to see her again in another direction. Nowadays. You said you don't write much code anymore. So are you completely in management? That's the first the first question or, and the second is, how do you keep up your connection to technology? How do you do you exercise this pendulum going back and forth and still scratching your own itch, because you probably want to go to code still, how's this live for you? Nowadays, I should say I'm completely in management. So my boss is very happy. However, I'm Chief software engineer here. So even my title allows me some leeway to go explore new things. I don't try to contribute too much to production code, because it tends to have shadows that if I would want holding back a team, it wouldn't be wise. So instead, I tend to look into new areas of development, or areas of need research that another engineer may not have the time to run down. So in terms of newer technologies, that's why I still maintain interest and focus and consideration. One of the things we found is what I've been here for 14 years, as I said, and TELUS has been around since 1997. We still have code that was written in the early 2000s, that we have solutions that have been written since then, that still knocking around intelius, I need someone to help guide new developers onto it from time to time I met guided development to one of our legacy solutions, but while guiding them be pointing them to the very latest ways of doing the thing we did back in 2005, or 2008. So it's been an opportunity for me, for example, to explore something like containerization and how you introduce containerization to a very old solution. So it involves upgrading things and exploring in that way, along with. So I'm really glad for my team and my boss is very interested in in chatbots and conversational user interfaces. So I have been able to build proof proofs of concept inside of that space. And I continue to do that. So as much as I'm not my day to day doesn't demand writing code. There are opportunities either for exploration, or for supporting legacy solutions of onboarding new developers that let me still get a chance to satisfy my need to write code. When you look back I do 14 years. What are the highlights that you he likes? Remember? Ah, that's a hard question. I think it's still living in the highlights to be honest. Like you maybe you ask what what are the highlights and there's something new Every Friday called tellers, Paul. And it's it's ongoing, it's but it's something that brings me a lot of joy because it's a time when our engineers get to sort of sit down and share with each other what they've learned over the last week. It's a simple exercise, but it really helps community stay together and know that everyone is available. So things like that, which we started about five years ago continue to shine. Last year was the 10th edition of our Italian school jam. I mean, we've had 10 years of Italian school jam, which is not an easy thing to, in my mind, contemplate doing 10 years of this advocacy initiative. And it's the first year we were able to use a Microsoft HoloLens in 2014, and we won the Microsoft digital citizenship award for Italia school jam. And so it was in the world celebrated as the one of the best advocacy initiatives, any marks of partner ecosystem. That's what my company here in Trinidad and Tobago, an island in the Caribbean. So that that means what folks fairly special things that I remember here, that is very cool. I have a big smile on my face. That's nice. Thanks. Remember, I agree, I agree. Shifting, shifting things a little bit again? How do you handle the problematic of constantly having to learn which can easily steal time from your family and and your family that you said you have two to two young daughters and your wife? How do you handle this, this, this disgusting back and forth? They don't play a lot of games, meaning meaning a lot of my time spending reading things. I also there's something I, I found that that question you asked about handling, the need to learn. And continuously be aware of what's taking place, it lines up for some reason with refactoring. So we just started to read Martin Fowler's second edition and refactoring. And early on he follows pointing out Listen, you need to understand that any solution you create, you will need to spend time pruning it and continuing to explore how can we learn better, I think that orientation that there was a better way that can be discovered, allows us to think about it in the same context of education and learning inside of all this field of programming, which is always changing. I also don't try to stay on with every trend. But I do know, listen, if our field in particular is very oriented towards learning and change, so you might as well embrace it, create space for it. Even at at the company level, we've started Monday that every engineer has a fixed block of time that they can use to learn what they want. So it's things like that we do so you don't have to tell yourself, okay, when I get home and start to read up on that particular article, we create space here so that our engineers can go have fun and spend time learning something relevant to where we should go next. I do also listen to podcasts in the car that the family doesn't quite appreciate. So I have to have to balance it a little bit. There was a lot of fun. Which podcast he listened to. Right now? I did Hansel minutes, Radio Hour, even though I'm in Trinidad, This American Life, like Freakonomics, oh dotnet rocks. I I recently found both this podcast developer's journey, as well as software engineering radio. So I do listen to these either in transit or if I'm going on one of my longer runs

Irwin Williams 33:51
your your runner, um,

Irwin Williams 33:53
I try to be like, every every year, we have the there's a pretty major running event in China, the half marathon, my team and myself who tried to participate. And if not use half marathon, it might be five keys here and there, just to stay fit and stay strong. That is cool. They're very wise. We sit way too much at work. So two balances. I love to trail around. I love to run the mountains. Nice. So we work My office is near to what actually is Incidentally, the largest groundwater in the world. Or it has been I think it's still as this is the Queen's Park Savannah. So on a lunchtime I an A colleague of mine and my cousin actually so we've gone and run around the savanna in the middle of the day. It's very hot. But it's cool. If you understand what I'm saying. I think I do. Yeah, that's a that's a nice balancing act. I think it's really something that's that's keeping me in place, I would say. I'm not sure I'll say this in English, but it's It's important. Cool, cool. Um, are you involved in in the hiring process? Yes, I'm involved in mostly I'm involved with this interviews. But I'm actually I've been in tell us we have two interviews. The first is kind of technical. And the second is more focused on sharing what the culture is. I'm involved in both, but primarily the first. And what is the key elemental the key skill that you would be looking for you personally, when you when you hire someone, or when you interview someone, I found it to be passion, I have found that questions that help us understand if the candidate in front of us is passionate, and what the area of what the field of software development, then we're talking to someone who we want to have some more conversations with. As it turns out, when people graduate from school, because we see a lot of graduates, their their working experience will determine how much software they write. And so it's a then becomes a big chance for them. If they don't get a job. It involves software, they won't write any code. And that unfortunately means for us, they're not necessarily going to be involved within it to some strong degree in terms of writing code for us. We like we don't, I don't think we have good measures of passion. So even that met that metric I have what people do with their time after work is not even fair. So it's a bit of a challenge. But we really want to know, are you here to spend the time to wrestle the harder challenges are on writing code? Because sometimes it gets frustrating sometimes is annoying. Sometimes you legit? Don't know the answer for weeks on end. How do you maintain your vibrancy and curiosity and a willingness to explore? And once more good after the breaches? Yeah, I was thinking we were you were talking how we could measure this. And it's, it's almost impossible. You're right, you're right. next challenge, you've done more, much more so difficult. I guess you could ask someone tell me about something you're passionate about. But out of the blue like this, it's kind of other contexts in how to how to insert I guess. Yeah, you're right. We often ask well, so what do you what do you like to spend the time doing what what what is appealing to you? Just to get a sense into Canada's mind, because really, for us in interviews is bi directional. So if we can help them understand what to ask us, the questions that asked me actually actually help point out whether they they may be a good fit or not.

Irwin Williams 37:38
Where do you think your personal journey is going?

Irwin Williams 37:40
that's a that's a hard question. Yes, it is. I like what I do here. I like I like, apparently, I like teaching. And so like my colleagues saw me. I like having conversations like this. I like talking to other developers, what cool things. I am not sure about that, then to see where was going? I hope it's more of this.

Irwin Williams 38:07
I think there's a very, very nice

Irwin Williams 38:11
direction that you could be taking. That's very, very valid answer, I would say. Thank you, thank you for for answering. Honestly, that's cold. And you say discussions like this are what you like, Where could the listeners trigger a discussion like this and continue the discussion like this with you? Where would be the appropriate place to are to start this. So I'm on Twitter, it's at I st a Wr. I'm also on Facebook, there's a nice group cribben developers group, we're often chatting, there were issues relating to us in the Caribbean in particular. And it's it's good to be there. Of course, I'll tell you a system. So if you want to chat with teleios what cool things we build about www that TELUS dash systems calm. So I'm hoping to talk and I love conversations like this. Nice. And do you have something on your plates coming up in the next weeks or month that you want to advertise? Well, all we're doing so this year, we didn't have a telesco jam activity, but we participated in the government's hack TT is the first ever government hackathon in Trinidad and Tobago, and the finals are going to be published soon. So you can check out either telesco jam.com, or hack TT. To find out more about how we were able to participate by judging and mentoring participants. They're nice. That was a fantastic tale of your story. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot, man. Good talking to you, Tim. You are good interviewer.

Irwin Williams 39:48
Thank you very much. And this has been another episode of developer's journey. I will see each other next week. Bye bye.

Irwin Williams 40:09
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