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Software Developers Journey Podcast

#90 Khaled Souf learned the value of adding value

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Khaled Souf 0:00
You know, what's really complicated in the, in our work is dealing with humans, not with computers. The main problem in that period was me. I was really arrogant. You know, I was like, like the hero in the team, always solving problem. Always the guy when they need help, they asked him and he always have the answers. In my head. It was like, hey, and they're sent everything right now. Nobody gonna teach me something. I know everything already. The thing is, I didn't meet yet. People who are gonna gonna really help me understand that. No, nothing. And the thing is, thank God for that. I met that kind of people really early.

Tim Bourguignon 0:51
Hello, and welcome to developer's journey. The podcast shining a light on developers lives from all over the world. My name is Tim Bourguignon. Today, I had the hell of a long but fantastic release day. This afternoon my wife gave birth to a 3rd child. So if I sound either sleepy or dreamy, you'll know why. But back to the software world because that's why we are here today. My guest today is Khaled Souf. Khaled is a passionate globetrotter developer from Tunisia. He lived in Paris for a while where he took part in the French and European software crafters community. He then moved to Montreal in Canada, and he's now the co-organizer of the Software Crafters Montreal meetup and the Socrates Canada unconference. He likes to speak about crafting software, clean code, XP, I mean, eXtreme Programming, and DevOps practices. And I'm sure we're going to talk about all this today. Khaled, welcome to the journey.

Khaled Souf 1:57
Hi, Tim. How are you?

Tim Bourguignon 1:58
Pretty tired, but pretty good. Thank you. It's been it's been a long day. But I'm glad to end it ended with you on the line. That's, that's gonna be fun. Okay, so let's go back to your beginnings. When does your life and software development mixed up where we're in place and time did that start?

Khaled Souf 2:23
Yeah, the thing is actually my, my journey started when when I was way, way, way before University. I was eight years old. My father was was bought that big computer. And as you know, I was fascinated with this new machine that how it works and how it's done and everything. So I that's that's the beginning of everything. The thing keys after using the computer for for like a few months, I decided that I will go for that. I didn't know yet. What I'm gonna do it Computer Science but I know that I'm going to doing something in computer science

Tim Bourguignon 3:05
but what attracted you there to this computer?

Khaled Souf 3:08
Actually it was something really new you know what when you're a boy at eight years old you're really interested in new things that you've never seen before and that's was the beginning it's it's really curiosity about but that that kind of machine I never seen before so so that's what what really interested me but I didn't know yet that that I'm gonna go to the industry it's like you know is it was a hobby like like every day the other kids today they're gonna play with the computer games with with many other stuff what i like it is really the machine itself so

Tim Bourguignon 3:45
you didn't really play you really started doing things with this machine.

Khaled Souf 3:51
Yeah. The thing is, I was always running the program, the the the programs that my father use it for his customers. And, and it was really that's what captivated me. So, at that moment, I didn't know yet the basics of programming and everything but, but it was really nice to, to see all these new things, how to run a program, how something that you're gonna give, give it when you run it, you give it some values and they're gonna calculate it. You're gonna do some stuff with that. That's what really captivated me about that machine. Yeah, it was really fun. It was really fun. And then I go to get to the university. Yeah, surprise, it's a I took a I took a computer science degree. in that phase, I was really, really active in all the community about Linux and about open source and about also free software's and every staff so it gets really I met so many people They get they got in the same mindset as I and then the work and their and their we're going to have really something that really captivated me is about coded so until that moment, I didn't get the idea that I'm gonna love coding like I do, right.

Tim Bourguignon 5:25
So you mean you graduated with a with a computer science degree? And until the end of your studies, you were not completely passionate about coding yet. But it's emergent after that. Yeah,

Khaled Souf 5:40
the thing is, I was only liking the machine until I until I get ready to work it. I cannot say at that moment that I like it. coding. I was only I know that I like the machine but not yet. What they do with the machine

Tim Bourguignon 6:00
Wait, what did you do with the machine back then?

Khaled Souf 6:03
Let's say I was coding at that moment. But But I didn't like it yet, because I didn't see the value yet, including things. You know, you are only coding what they asked you to do like, like the exercise, or maybe the project they are asking me to do, and that's all so I didn't see the value in it. So it's like, you know, it's some kind of exercise they give you, you need to get them back to the professor to get to get your, your degrees and that's all. That's the thing that I was thinking back then.

Tim Bourguignon 6:41
Okay. What were you going with back then was this was Pascal, Java C,

Khaled Souf 6:48
usually, usually it was C, C and Java. Okay. C is like, you know, the image triple variant of C i was coding in the C system. You're using the libraries of lightning. Also the classical c programs that you need to do and, and majorly that and that's all we get only like like two language because at that time when you are studying they they took one procedural language and when object oriented language. So in the object oriented language we get Java and c++. And on the other side of procedural language we get, we get C,

Tim Bourguignon 7:32
I leave through the same program, I guess C and Pascal and then delfy, Delphi in Java or Delphi and C sharp and then some Lisp on the side just to to sprinkle some functional in it. Okay, but you say at some point that this love for coding emerged. What happened? How did that come to be?

Unknown Speaker 7:57
Yeah, the thing keys

Khaled Souf 8:00
Usually what I like about good is the impact that can the value that can gives to the others. You know, when you when you are coding something really professionally talking, and it's something used by many people in the world, you see the value in it you you make what we call an impact in the society and that's what I like it about code. And that's think I've seen only that's when I started working because I started working on something that gonna make an impact in the society.

Tim Bourguignon 8:30
Hmm, okay, creating value having impact, really getting your code into the hands of a customer Actually, yeah. Okay. So tell us about this. This jump from university to your first job where you may be discovered this, this creating value in having impact.

Khaled Souf 8:47
And I remember my first job it was really in a small company that is doing it consultancy, Indonesia, and the thing is, I was working in In an application that that was majorly used in Germany for managing repairing device like like phones and all that stuff and I've seen we've got some of that that's really was helping them checking the status of the the status of you know, a fruit bearing device sending something to to the customer to say hey, you can get your device it's already done you can Oh, I'm sorry we need you to get back because we need you to pay for from for extra fees because we check at your device and we've seen that that there is something missing that we need to add something that all that stuff so when I when I've seen all these processes, helping people getting what do I they'd like to do. That's what really what really I like it about the code. And that's the first thing that that I've seen, I've seen hope this this kind of stuff. Want to do it? Because it's really helping people in the society? Did

Tim Bourguignon 10:03
you have direct client communication in this in this company?

Khaled Souf 10:07
At one time I get that and it was really it was really nice. But usually it was it was with my boss. So usually it was my boss who were looking to them, ask some some few questions, getting back and we're gonna storm brainstorm together to get to get a solution from for these. Let's see problems

Tim Bourguignon 10:28
but you were still able to realize this, this added value, even though you were not talking to the customer directly.

Khaled Souf 10:35
Yeah, you're right. I was getting that value because I I've seen also how it can be used. We can think as the customers for that because it's something really use it for customer for, for measuring for, for for for all the people it's not really something that's really like an internal application or something like that. Maybe if it was an internal application, I will not see the value in it.

Tim Bourguignon 11:02
Alan, did you did you stay in this in this job?

Khaled Souf 11:04
I think I didn't say too much. I stayed like, like 11 months or something like that, because it was really a project. So they didn't get the budget on that. So they changed me for another for another project, and then a, I choose to change company that I'm that moment. Because the thing is, it was really the other one was it was an application that didn't give direct value to people. It was like, like something for for banks, and it was really an eternal application. So we didn't like that. So, so quit that job with that with that company to go to for another one.

Tim Bourguignon 11:46
How did you choose this next company?

Khaled Souf 11:49
Yeah. Let me be frank with you. I was young at the time it was about the salary.

Tim Bourguignon 11:57
Don't worry, we have old made this mistake.

Khaled Souf 12:02
Yeah, it was mostly about the salary. So it gets really big rise in their salaries. So that's why I got to that new company. And in that new company, it was a company that was majorly working with France. So I so I got the, what do you call that the culture, Chuck, because I was working with German people. So we know how German people they were thinking, and now I change it for the French people. So I don't know how the French people they are working. So I get that, that that culture shock and that's fine to to have it you know, you are in the same situation as I because you you've changed from country to another and every time you change the country, you get that the cutter a jerk. And and that's why you need you need to understand how the people think in that country to be able to, to communicate with them. So it's not really only about the code. Also, I think The most interesting part as a consultant is really about people. You know, the problem that you get in the computer they're really you can resolve them but but people you need really to, to get some kind of soft skills to work with people. You know, what's really complicated in, in our work is dealing with humans, not with computers.

Tim Bourguignon 13:23
But that's also why I don't like the term soft skills. Because it makes make it sound easy. make it sound something like like, like smooth and and something Yeah, something easy. But I don't have a better word for it. I've heard catalyst skills I've heard interpersonal skills, people skills, that just doesn't add up. So so soft skills, the better the best term we have, but I like it. I totally agree with you. It's the problem is between the chair and and the keyboard. It's not always

Khaled Souf 14:00
So, getting back to that, let's say, like I said, the problem is the human itself. So the main problem in that period was me. I was really arrogant at that period. Because, you know, I was like, like the hero in the team, always something problem. Always the guy when they need help they, they asked him and he always have the answers. So it's like, okay, in my head, it was like, Hey, I understand everything right now. Nobody gonna teach me something. I know everything already.

Tim Bourguignon 14:44
Yeah.

Khaled Souf 14:46
The thing is, I didn't meet yet. People who gonna gonna really help me understand that? I know nothing. And the thing is, thank God for that. I meant that kind of thing. really early? Where did I meet them? It was like my first work in France when I get to Paris. And these people were really to senior developer real one.

Tim Bourguignon 15:15
You meet you meet not not not the old ones, but the ones we experience.

Khaled Souf 15:19
Yeah, I didn't say that. The thing is, like, you know, in the industry, you get always two types of senior developers, one that we call they, they do the same thing repeatedly, with without without thinking, how we do the stuff right now. And the one that they are always thinking about a new staff how to do it, how to do it with in new ways and everything. So I made the second one.

Tim Bourguignon 15:53
So you mean, there is the senior developer that has really learned their stuff, and there is this way 20 years of experience with something like this, and there's the senior developer that has done 20 times the first year of develop.

Khaled Souf 16:06
Yeah, that's when that's when I'm thinking Yes. Thank you for rephrasing and and what it was really nice. They were contributors also in so many open sources, open sources projects. So they showed me how I should do how I should work how, how I should check the information because mostly sometimes I get so wrong about so many things, but how doing things and it was not the only slap in the face that I get. This is only the first one Tell me more. Yeah. The second one I get it when I joined some gig company. Let's call it like that some company with so so many personae developers in France and in that went out why I met these kinds of people. It's like, you know, it's like seeing the next level they they got so many speakers in more in most of the conference. So many people, they were writing books and everything, and so pursued eight people in that company. So when I joined that company, I was the little one. And it was really nice because I say things started to change my mindset. And they see the interest when I get to people that they're gonna give me something to learn. So I don't care anymore about the people, they they try to learn from me. That's fine to teach people but I like more learning from people.

Tim Bourguignon 17:47
Was it easy to transition from this, from this state of thinking you know, everything to accepting that you don't and to accepting that people show you the ropes and guide you,

Khaled Souf 18:00
let's be clear, it's really hard because you know, you get your ego takes takes a lot of you know, it's like you know you need you need to consider everything that you've been thinking maybe for three years or four years, but that's fine. That's fine because you know, I was really lucky guy because I get that really early in my career. Most people they don't get get that and even with 20 years of experience so I was really lucky to to meet these kind of people.

Tim Bourguignon 18:32
Did you get help to realize this? No, not help him in some somebody some of the senior guiding you, but as somebody helping you to realize that you have to change your mindset in order to continue growing

Khaled Souf 18:46
in the first No, let's be clear, they have been really harsh with me. But what but they've seen that transformation and they like it and then when when when they realized that they told me they told me now I'm in, in the good way to do it. So So, so it was really harsh in the first but but that's fine because you need that slap at some at some point you need it I think sometimes you need somebody to tell you that that that you are not in the right track. And it needs to be sometimes it can be harsh but that's fine. That's life

Tim Bourguignon 19:29
so so it was more more really a slap in the face and not notice moose discovery. Yeah,

Khaled Souf 19:35
it was not this new thing is like you know the slap in the face and after I realized everything that they got really smooth with me so because they know that they understand what they should they understand everything that they said in the in the good way.

Tim Bourguignon 19:50
Okay, so so it's kind of a bad cop. Good Cop.

Khaled Souf 19:53
Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of that but but it was not the only slap in the face.

Tim Bourguignon 20:02
Yeah, you should tell me more.

Khaled Souf 20:04
Yeah. So I would do more. And then I discovered something that we call software crafting. The first thing is, I started with the practice, because I've seen so many good practice using extreme programming and everything. And I discovered the index of developers. And then I understand something that is really valuable for the developers is about humility, and, and less uncertainty. You You don't need to be sure about everything. Nothing is sure, maybe it's gonna be sure for this moment, but tomorrow is gonna be out of date. Don't be sure about everything that that you are doing right now. It can be a best practice right now. But tomorrow is gonna be a bad practice.

Tim Bourguignon 20:53
How did you discover this?

Khaled Souf 20:55
This is the things that I've discovered. You know, when I started making Started with Java. So we get to many best practices. And every time I've been working with Java, let's say the term they were pitching the JavaScript developers at that moment. And now when I see that the the JavaScript developers, they are pitching the Java developers, so you see nothing stay as it is.

Tim Bourguignon 21:21
Indeed, yeah.

Khaled Souf 21:24
And, and the thing is, like I said, At that moment, I was really even with that slap in the face that I get with the two senior developer that I've been talking about. I was focused it majorly in the technical skills. But But the thing I discovered is really what is really important is not the technical skills. It's it's really about how you deal with people. That's the first one. The second one is really is not about the tools themselves. It's about how you use them. And these two stuff that they discovered I just got It's in a community of software crafters in Paris.

Tim Bourguignon 22:04
And before we get there, and you said, the technical skills is less important, I agree with you, but is there a minimum? Or is there is there something like like too few technical skills?

Khaled Souf 22:18
I think the minimal is really learning how to learn. That's the thing. Because, you know, in our industry, every time they change technologies, they change the way of how we do things. So we need really to adapt fast. But yes, you're right, we need some minimum. Let's say so many more technical skills. Okay, but the thing is, in my opinion, it's okay to you need somebody with the basic skills but what you need more is somebody who has the skills to to learn fast, and to learn very well. Anything new that that came to his face.

Tim Bourguignon 22:57
Nice. Yes, yes. Okay. So then you said What is more important is dealing with people and knowing how to use your tools. And this you discovered in the craftsmanship or the crafters community. Tell us more about this.

Khaled Souf 23:10
Yeah. The thing is when I was talking about that is, let me take an example. So I can be more specific about that. Usually right now, when I joined the team, it mostly junior developers, and I'm only like, coaching them and all the stuff. The benefits of, of learning it become less and less, you can find more, you can find opportunities to learn. So with that, what I'm usually doing is trying to teach them how they can be fast learn so fast learners, so I can learn from them. You see what I mean? Because that's that the thing that they're always thinking about that so so that's why when I'm interviewing people, I'm looking always But the potential. So usually I asked them to do some data in some language that they don't know. And they see how they are going to approach that problem. And why they choose to do that and everything. So usually when, when I'm interviewing people, I never asked them what they did before. Usually I send them an exercise to cut out something about coding. And then they give me back that, that code, and we're going to have a discussion about that. And it is going to be only a discussion, it will not be really asking something and trying to get answers from them. Because I know they asked if they're gonna fight it in the internet, but how the way they think the way they code that's the thing that is really interesting me,

Tim Bourguignon 24:45
what are you looking for? Exactly in this discussion,

Khaled Souf 24:49
if they are open minded or not, when somebody criticized what would they do? How, how they will react when when you give them some new information. How They, they're going to use it, they're going to check it, they're gonna try to maybe to check more than that, to get more than the information that you give them. They're gonna that's the kind of thing that that that I'm trying to get from from people when I'm interviewing them.

Tim Bourguignon 25:17
But this doesn't have anything to do with the with the crafters movement yet does it?

Khaled Souf 25:24
They think is when we are talking about the movement of crafters we get like, like I said, we get to stuff we get the practice. So we need the master to master the tools and the practice. But when we are talking about the tools is about really about the metals, but Extreme Programming TDD, domain driven design, BDD. That's the tool that you need to master and the other stuff is really about how the way that you live as a developers, the way that you'll be having a company, the way that you'll be have with with your with your team members in work. So it's almost about, let's say, the ethics of the developers, the philosophy of the developers. And I discovered that with the, with the, with the book that that created the movement of, of great craftsmanship. What is called is a pragmatic programmer by Andy hat. And it was really it's like, you know, it's opening my mind about so many stuff. Because I was wrong about so many things. I was focusing in, in a particular language. I didn't I didn't open my mind to so many other language other stores. Like I said, it was it was a slap in the face of song, but that but at that time, it was not it was not people who slapped me in the face. It was a book

Tim Bourguignon 26:48
which can be even harder. Yeah. Okay, so you learned through this book, that's you should know that you could behave differently. What did you change in your life? Did you get there,

Khaled Souf 27:01
what they changed is getting more empathy for people trying to understand people more. The way that I'm interviewing people, I was not focusing really about what they know, it was it was really focusing how they do the work. And how they learn. To know that's the major change meaning that and the way also how I behave with my, with my boss with my with people I will clean with all of that. All of that changes.

Tim Bourguignon 27:33
Did you get guidance in chaining? How do you discover all this? Or is it everything in this book?

Khaled Souf 27:40
I think it was it was really meaty, meaty in work. It started with that. And then we starting going to, to meetups, so we met more, more people about that. So it was like a mix between the books that everybody asking me Hey, maybe you should read that one. And the makes about the people that I was meeting with the community, you know, the most interesting conversation, they are not at work. They are at the cafe, in the meetup when you are meeting developers outside of work, because they are really, you know, more relaxed so they can say more stuff and you can take that stuff less personally. And your ego will not take it. So that's really that's really good. I think the meetups and the books. That's the thing that helped me a lot to to to change to that mindset,

Tim Bourguignon 28:39
which meetup were you going to at the time,

Khaled Souf 28:42
at the time it was software crafters, Paris, it was also coding dojo, Paris, also the conference, I was also going to sekret s Germany, so Kratos friends after that, so it was really and it's truly become like like a big family, you know, it's like it's really family. There's something that they regret when when they get to memorial is really losing that family. So, we keep in touch we we ask about how we do the staff, we get so many things that we discuss in that stuff. Yeah, certainly it's like it's it's taking from my personal time, but that's fine because I was really having fun doing that, with people trying new things, checking how the other they're doing their stuff, comparing with myself, it's like, you know, usually when when you look, when you look in the mirror, a mirror, you only see when faced of the prison, but the other people they get to see something else. So when we discuss with the other, we discard you. We discover other perspective that you didn't see in every stuff in the tools that you use, they're going to use a differently so you see something really new in the language that you will And in them how you do things also how you think about things. So, it's, it's like, you know, you get maybe five years of experience, but you met so many people, they're gonna enrich you. You got like, like 20 or 25 years of experience because the people they, they, you learn a lot from the people. And that's what's really interesting in these type of communities. Would you mind defining what Socrates is? I'm not sure the listeners are familiar with this. Yeah, Socrates is really an unconference. It's called software craftsmanship and test it treating majorly craftsmanship and tests. Usually you don't have a program at all. So when you get there it is the people that come to that conference. They're gonna create the program, like Scrum board or something like that. They get a booth they're gonna pitch about the their talks about their workshops. And then you don't know what is the subject in every morning you discover the subject that everybody wants to do. Sometimes the people they're gonna pitch about the subject, sometimes they know the subject. So they try to teach the people and sometimes they don't learn. They don't know what also they are trying to get somebody to teach them about that stuff. And it was really

Tim Bourguignon 31:22
interesting. So if I if I refresh this, you get to a conference, like like any other conference, but there is no special speakers and attendees. You have just attendees.

Khaled Souf 31:33
Yeah, you get you get only attendees, you know, usually when they get to conference, as let's say as an attendee or something like that, I don't like it at all, because you are always staying listening to people you are not interacting. You are waiting at the end of the session to interact with people, but in this kind of an conference, you interact in all the session, so you can ask some question. I'm gonna put some remarks, you're gonna get some feedback when you are trying to do something. So it's it is really interesting. It's like, it's like something you can experiment so many things. And you get so many feedbacks

Tim Bourguignon 32:14
from these people. It sounds like a very fun, very fun conference to be at. Let's let's back to your story. So at some point, you move to Canada, right?

Khaled Souf 32:23
Yes. Move address

Tim Bourguignon 32:24
in case like three months ago, three months ago or something like that. And you took the concept of Socrates with you, didn't you?

Khaled Souf 32:33
Yes. I think I was not alone. I was with to two other people they they get also from France. So we took that concept. We took also the concept of software crafters, because they don't have that here. And the and it's really nice because we are the first edition is going to be in March. In the 15th of March. We're gonna try it was really So many people all over Canada, it's gonna be really interesting to see how the others they they do their stuff, and we will see how it's gonna work.

Tim Bourguignon 33:13
So you are you trying to build a new family over there?

Khaled Souf 33:17
Yes, that's the case. Yes, I'm trying to be the new family there. So will not stay alone. And and and also because also to see how they do the stuff here because surely it's somewhere different than Europe. It can be really enriching for me to see different ways of doing things did you did you discover some different ways already in those three months since you arrived in here in in Moria. They are really thinking, let's say the American way so they are taking risks when they do some stuff. There are some kind of stuff that they that I liked a lot because we don't take much risk is in, in Europe when they when we are doing some stuff. But sometimes also I think they we are more, let's say rigorous in France because we are really sometimes we, we really like we focus mostly on the process and we we are always trying to get something really perfect in France. That's what I learned when I was in France, right here is like, you know, is there more relaxed about that? That's fine. If it didn't work to do the good way, but we can do it, we can do better and everything. Sometimes I like that. Sometimes I say oh, no, we can. It should be work in that way. So So it depends on the situation. But right now, I'm not sure that that maybe we can talk about that in a year or something like that. Yes, senior masters really Not enough to, to give your feedback in that.

Tim Bourguignon 35:04
Going back to the, to the beginning of the of the interview, where you said you started liking coding, when you discovered how to or that you could deliver value with code, I would have expected you to strive in this more American environment being less rigorous, as you said, less searching for the perfect solution, but trying to bring value out very fast and and iterate on it. That's that's more what I see in the American way. From our European centric point of view,

Khaled Souf 35:38
what that what I see here for the three months that I've been there, and let me be clear, it's not really my last feedback I think is going to be changed to the time they get more freedom to do stuff. When they do their stuff. The people they adopt a new things really faster than in Europe. And it is really nice because you can explain In so many things and you're gonna get the feedback really really fast not in the same way in Europe usually in Europe is going to take so much time to get the feedback when you are trying to getting good impact in the society so so that's the thing that I that I like it here you see in everything that I've seen right now for these three months there are some few things that I like it and some other thing that that I didn't like so so it still is still really appreciated. So and it can be and many opinion I think my opinions can be can change over the time.

Tim Bourguignon 36:37
May I ask why you move to Ghana,

Khaled Souf 36:39
the thing is, I move it to see new, a new and different way of doing things.

Tim Bourguignon 36:45
And why Canada then

Khaled Souf 36:46
you know it is happening right now in in USA It was about USA or Canada so I choose Canada

Tim Bourguignon 36:56
Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. But did you did you even consider going somewhere else?

Khaled Souf 37:05
Actually, I've been thinking been some other countries in Europe because I stayed so many years in Paris. I was thinking about London I was thinking also about Zurich or something like that. But the thing is, I said, Hey, if I stay in Europe is going to be the same things, almost the same thing. So we need to change of base, I need to see something new, some different culture. So let's try to see how the American do stuff.

Tim Bourguignon 37:36
Okay, fair enough, then Canada is a good pick. It's close to to the USA as the enemy I would say. But then you're in Montreal, which is kind of very French. You're not in Vancouver or Toronto.

Khaled Souf 37:50
Yeah, you're right. But the thing is, usually in the company that they will creep. We get some few customers in our, in Vancouver in Toronto, so So I can work from there. And they can move from time to time to discuss them or so. So I get also the opportunity to work to work with it with them. And also we get also customers from Boston from New York. So, so that's fine.

Tim Bourguignon 38:13
You're doing consulting, work or contracting work.

Khaled Souf 38:17
Yeah, I'm doing measurably consulting work. And I think is in this kind of stuff. You move a lot. And you work with a lot of customers that, you know,

Tim Bourguignon 38:27
how do you picture your future in the next six years? So building these communities in Canada and starting your own company, what's what's what do you envision?

Khaled Souf 38:39
I think right now, if I talk about right now, it's really about having fun. So that's why creating the community it was really it is really fun. building some something new It is really fun. But I think at some point, I'm asking myself always this, this question. Maybe maybe building a product that is going to give an impact in the society that that's, that's, let's say, my May my goal in the future, really starting a company with somebody else or maybe alone with a product that is really going to be helpful for people. That's when I seen in my future, but I'm not sure if he can do it or not. So right now, I don't have the ID I don't have how to do it. But that's my goal. Are you

Tim Bourguignon 39:30
looking for for someone looking for you?

Khaled Souf 39:33
Yeah, I'm looking, I'm looking for IDs. I'm looking also for personal partners that have ideas, new ideas. They need to they need somebody to help them work for and, and create something. Like I said at the end, I give you that impact in society.

Tim Bourguignon 39:53
Where would you go about looking for such people or such ideas?

Khaled Souf 40:00
Don't have an idea yet.

Tim Bourguignon 40:03
Okay, so you don't have a special recipe to, to advice for.

Khaled Souf 40:06
Yeah, right now, right. And I think I don't I don't have a special recipe about that. But if, if I'd like to give an advice for people, maybe for those who starting working in the industry, I'm going to ask them to, to stay to stay humble when they are learning something. And that's okay to not know everything. And it's totally fine. If you know everything that is there, then there is something wrong in what you do. Or maybe you are in the wrong place. So you need to change

Tim Bourguignon 40:41
Hmm, you said it's okay not to know everything and if you do, you're either in the wrong place or something is wrong. Yes, I agree with the not being in the wrong place. So if it's, if you'll that's that's the say, if you're the smartest in the room, then you're probably in the wrong room. I don't really like to sing but I like the idea behind it. But the the other sentence there's something wrong what what do you mean by that?

Khaled Souf 41:05
Yes. What they mean is something wrong with you. So you need to recall reconsider yourself.

Tim Bourguignon 41:13
So you mean the Dunning Kruger style you don't know what that he or you don't realize that you don't know anything?

Khaled Souf 41:20
Yes that's that's that's the kind of stuff that I mean so you you don't know that you don't know yet you don't know yet what you don't know.

Tim Bourguignon 41:29
Okay okay it's it's the if if nobody around you is the asshole and it's really you? Yes.

Khaled Souf 41:39
Almost that

Tim Bourguignon 41:40
is okay. With a different different color. Okay, so stay humble. That's that's a very very good advice colored Thank you very much. That's been a very insightful to see your your story and how you move to Tunisia to friends to Canada. Taking your family along with you or not taking your crafters familiar with you. That's interesting to see. Thanks very much for sharing.

Khaled Souf 42:05
Yeah. Thanks a lot. Tim, thank you for inviting me. Where could the listeners continue this discussion with you? It can be the software crafters meeting. I'm always there. And it can be also in sokratis. And they can also ask me in my website, which is a case of.com. And that's fine. I can go there. You can see them if it is outside the work and if I was not with my daughter, who is five months old, so

Tim Bourguignon 42:37
this family comes first and then the crafters familiar.

Khaled Souf 42:40
Yes.

Tim Bourguignon 42:42
That's very important to notice. I do that as well. Very cool. Very cool. Anything coming up on your plates you mentioned so credits happening in mid March. So very soon after this.

Khaled Souf 42:56
Yeah, very, very soon. It's going to be in a chalet. It's about I think 130 kilometers from Maria and 100 from odawa. So it's really like in the middle. It will it is really cool because because we can get people from Germany, people from

Tim Bourguignon 43:19
Canada and even people from the USA, so it's gonna be really interesting. Do you expect some tickets to still to be available that the beginning of March,

Khaled Souf 43:29
I'm sorry to say that but everything is on that.

Tim Bourguignon 43:34
So people too bad when this airs, you will be able to follow it on Twitter.

Khaled Souf 43:42
Yeah. I think they're gonna, they're gonna they're gonna need to check the next year. Because next year, we are preparing also, next year edition right now,

Tim Bourguignon 43:52
and this is something you have to know about the Socrates conferences. I don't know much about it, but that I know, the tickets go out very, very fast.

Khaled Souf 44:00
Yeah, because usually the places are really limited. We get like 25 places here for the first edition of Canada. But I hope in the next year we're gonna we're gonna give more tickets than than this year.

Tim Bourguignon 44:14
I guess, for you on your personal websites, I would say and you will probably talk about it at some point.

Khaled Souf 44:20
Yeah, in my website, you can find everything. If you need to call me by phone and you are in the USA or Canada. You get it. You get also my email. My link is in the website. Everything is in the website. Awesome. Thank you

Tim Bourguignon 44:35
very much. It's been a

Khaled Souf 44:36
blast. Thank you, Tim.

Tim Bourguignon 44:39
And this has been another episode of developer's journey. We will see each other next week, bye. All right, this is Tim from a different time and space with a few comments to make. First, get the most of these developer's journey by subscribing to the podcast with the app of your choice, and get the new episodes automagically, right when the air. The podcast is available on all major platforms. Then, visit our website to find the show notes with all the links mentioned by our guests, the advices they gave us, their book, references and so on. And while you're there, use the comments to continue the discussion with our guests or with me, or reach out on Twitter or LinkedIn. Then a big big THANK YOU to the generous Patreon donors that help me pay the hosting bills. If you have a few coins to spare, please consider a small monthly donation. Every pledge, however small counts. Finally, please do someone a favor, tell them about the show today and help them on their journey.