Software Developers Journey Podcast

#93 Guilherme Rambo found his joy in coding for iOS


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Guilherme Rambo 0:00
This first app I made was never like huge success. It never really made me much money. But it did have enough users that it taught me how to deal with having a real life production app in the store and dealing with like, support emails and dealing with bugs and service outages. He had a server side component with, which was also interesting.

Tim Bourguignon 0:35
Hello, and welcome to developer's journey. The podcast shining a light on developers lives from all over the world. My name is Tim Bourguignon, and today I receive Guilherme Rambo. Guilherme's official job is building apps for both the Mac and iOS. He has been passionately building beautiful UI eyes, fluid animations, and great user experiences since the early days I have the iPhone SDK. But he is perhaps best known for his reverse engineering his articles on nine to five Mac, and for being the co host of the stack trace podcast. He welcome step journey.

Guilherme Rambo 1:14
Hi, Tim. Thanks for having me.

Tim Bourguignon 1:16
So let's go back to somewhere in your past, did your coding story start with the iPhone?

Guilherme Rambo 1:22
Not really. It's actually very interesting. And it's not as unique as I used to think it was i've i've been talking to many people at like conferences, and many other types of gatherings. And it came to my knowledge that this is actually a fairly common path for people who work with iPhone and mobile in general these days. So I got started with programming as a web developer. I used to make websites for small companies and for for fun and In the beginning, but then I noticed that some local companies wanted websites and they would pay me to make websites for them. And that that's that was like my first job. And I was a freelancer. Basically, after a long time doing that, I don't remember exactly how many years it was, but it was like at least five years doing websites. I was kind of tired. And I got my first Mac, and I naturally started learning how to make stuff for the Mac. This was 2008 when I got my first Mac, and I was still doing web stuff, but I started like tinkering with Xcode and making Little Mac apps for myself. At the time, I didn't really ship anything. And I kind of liked it. It was like a breath of Fresh air for someone who had been working with web development and having to support multiple web browsers, including Internet Explorer six back then, which was a huge pain. And yeah, I did like HTML CSS, I did all the back then there was called the table less movements where you would make your websites without using tables and without using Dreamweaver and stuff like that. So

Tim Bourguignon 3:28
it's just so painful to hear.

Guilherme Rambo 3:29
Oh, yeah, it was awful. So I was kind of tired of it. And also dealing with clients was also a pain. I was really not happy anymore doing that. And it's actually this is kind of interesting because at the same time, I was starting to work with video production. Something I don't talk about much, but I used to work with video. Production like doing corporate videos and even weddings and stuff like that. I wasn't sure I wanted to keep programming as my way of making a living. And I think a huge reason for that was how unsatisfied I was working with websites and the state of the web back then. But when I started doing Mac stuff, I really liked it. But at the time, I didn't think it was possible for me to make money doing that, especially coming from like a small town and my clients back then were local businesses like which local business we want the Mac App, zero. So yeah, and I didn't really feel like the app star was the thing for me for some reason, I don't know, I didn't have an iPhone. I couldn't afford an iPhone. The iPhone wasn't in Brazil yet, so I couldn't even buy one if I wanted to. But that all changed. I think it was circa 2009, maybe 2010. When I got my first iPhone, there was the iPhone 3g. And naturally, I started making apps for the iPhone. And he was familiar to me since I had been making stuff for the Mac, even though it was just like, little tie things for myself. It was familiar and it was even more fun than making stuff for the Mac. And then I, I kept doing that and I followed like the Cs 193 p Stanford course that's on iTunes U which is free and teaches how to make iPhone apps back then. It was all like Objective C, I don't I think not. Automatic reference counting didn't exist at the time. So it was very different than it is today. But yeah, and slowly I started realizing that I wanted to do that. So, in 2013, I released my first app in the App Store, actually, I think it was 2012. Yeah, it was the end of 2012. Actually, it was mid 2013. I believe. It's a long time ago. So memories are shuffled but I pretty sure it was mid 2013. And it was this app that was entirely focused on the Brazilian market. And it was for tracking packages sent through the local shipping service here in Brazil. And The main thing that my app had, that was different from most other apps on the same market was that he had both an iOS app and the Mac App, and they would sync. And that was like, revolutionary at the time. Yeah, so so that's basically the gist of how I I decided to do iPhone stuff for a living.

Tim Bourguignon 7:29
Nice, nice, nice, nice. Did you have a formal training in programming before starting doing doing web dev or was just a hobby and getting into it and learning on the way

Guilherme Rambo 7:41
it was mostly self taught. My school had a computer class. And I know this is very common as well, like many people started like that. And it had a computer class and I remember we had several different options as to What type of computer stuff we wanted to learn. And one of them was dos programming. And I picked that one and I was the only student in that class. So I guess I'm weird in some way. But I think I had contact with programming before because I had like a friends or maybe it was a cousin. I don't remember the person but someone had shown me how you could like write these commands and the computer will do stuff. This wasn't like the people that like the previous generations started because the only way to use a computer was to program it. There wasn't anything premades basically, you just typed stuff and then then press enter and ran. But I got started with like, we Those 98 or something. So it was all gooey, all like, fairly friendly already. But someone showed me that there was this other side of computing that was actually typing commands and telling the computer what to do. And that was fascinating for some reason. And I saw I had the DOS programming thing at school. And then later, my parents enrolled me in this like delfy programming thing. There was like a third party course on delfy. I don't know if you're familiar with delfy. Yeah, sure, the object oriented beskow kinda look like IB. So you'd write components and connected them to code and you could make little apps and I don't remember exactly how I went from that to web, PR. I mean, to be honest, but I think it was just something. Maybe it was part of the course as well. Maybe it was one of those hybrid courses that taught you lots of things. That's my memory is a little fuzzy on that, but I'm pretty sure right after the delfy stuff, I went to web programming and then when I learned that I could make some money from it, then I I really

Tim Bourguignon 10:26
stuck with it. Did you always have this this enterpreneurship mindset to make money to learn a skill to to earn your living right away?

Guilherme Rambo 10:38
Yeah, I think maybe was something from the way like my my, my father had his own repair shop where he would repair TVs and and all sorts of electronics. And he was his own thing. So he owned the shop and he was just himself in never had any employees or something. He was always just him and the shop. And I think maybe that was how I grew up with this mindset of I can have my own thing. I don't need to like go find the regular job.

Tim Bourguignon 11:22
And I'm grasping a little bit in the future. But did you have a regular job with air quotes since now or if you've been a freelancer all the way.

Guilherme Rambo 11:31
I've only had one regular job. It's, it's interesting. It was after I was working for several years, I went to this conference. And someone approached me and told me about this really cool company that was moving to four innopolis which is why I leave now. I didn't leave here back then I lived in another place and that they would like to hire me. And I was like, Okay, I'll think about it. And I knew for innopolis because we had relatives here. So we would come here every summer, basically, for a vacation. It's an island in the east coast of Brazil, so there'll be lots of beautiful beaches and and stuff like that. So we always came here for vacation, and I was like, I would really like to live there. That looks like a really cool place. So the company was moving here, they had like, a package that would help the new hires move here for the comp with the company. It wasn't a requirement. I could work remotely, but I really wanted to move here. So in 2017, I joined this company and I moved here, and I'm still working there. But I work part time now.

Tim Bourguignon 12:59
Did you Oh, full time and then part time

Guilherme Rambo 13:01
Yeah, I started full time and when the other stuff I just started to pick up and I didn't have time to dedicate for both things and financially the my other work like writing and other apps was really starting to make sense financially like it was starting to really make some money with that. I my idea was to quit. But it was like I was really sad because I really liked the work that we do at the, as they call it the job job. So I talked to my manager, and then they offered me the part time arrangements so I really liked that. They figured out a way for me to stay while still being able to have some time to do my own stuff.

Tim Bourguignon 13:57
Like the term job

Guilherme Rambo 13:59
yeah. Let's go. I think the first time I heard it was on ATP and it was coined by Kay sylius, but I'm not sure

Tim Bourguignon 14:07
all it will check that all the internet will correct you. Okay, so after making a big, big fast forward, let's go back to you starting to write apps. So you left the html5 Now I understand that you could get into Objective C, after doing some dos programming and Delphi. That's, that's a jump that is understandable. Going from from html html5 to Objective C would be would be awful. Yeah, I tried it. Well, I still have goose bumps. But okay, so you started developing first for the Mac, and then the iPhone came out and then you were able to afford an iPhone and he rocked your world, if I may say, and he decided to, to write abs. So So what was the What was it like to first create app and be able to run it on your phone and then get users to download this and maybe get some feedback and then hear about your app in the wild. How was it?

Guilherme Rambo 15:08
It was very, very interesting experience. It was very different back then than it is today. I remember sending a fax to Apple to open up my developer accounts. Remember when that was the case?

Tim Bourguignon 15:22
Was it ever the case? Damn, yeah,

Guilherme Rambo 15:23
used to have to send a fax to Apple with a farm to open up a developer accounts. And you had to pay 99 US dollars per year per developer program. And back then, you had the iPhone developer program and the Mac developer program. They were two separate programs that you had to sign up for. These days. It's just one you pay 99 bucks for a year and you'll get access to both iPhone and Mac developer programs. Yeah, so it was a different time. But in the also was a different time because the app store was a lot smaller than it is today was already picking up. It was already big it was, it was clear to everyone that the app store was here to stay in that it was going to keep being the present and the future of app making and distribution. But it was different. And I remember my like this first app I made was never like a huge success. It never really made me much money. But it did have enough users that it taught me how to deal with having a real life production app in the store and dealing with like support emails and dealing with bugs and service outages. It had the server side component with which was also interesting. I was used to writing backends for like the websites I made, so it was natural for me to also write a back end for my app. There was no cloud kits when I wrote the app for sinking. So I had to use my own back end and my own back and also did the whole like sniffing of the postal service to alert you and send notifications when your package was forwarded to somewhere else and stuff like that. And it was written in PHP, by the way that was there. That was my language of choice for back end like back then

Tim Bourguignon 17:38
it did we did the job done.

Guilherme Rambo 17:40
Yeah, yeah. It's still does these days if you if you want to. I prefer other things, but it's just fun to make fun of, but yeah, it wasn't. It was a very good experience. It was popular enough that it made me get contact with how it is to run a real app, commercial app that's in the hands of customers. But it wasn't large enough that it was too painful. And like, I probably had, like, one support email per week or something that I was someone wanting to, like have some question answered or had a bug or feature suggestion. So it was a very small amounts of maintenance work, and it was very satisfying

Tim Bourguignon 18:35
those really cool. So that got you even more hooked, I imagine. Absolutely.

Guilherme Rambo 18:41
Yeah. So that was, yeah, that that that got me really into it. And I thought if I was able to do this, then I can probably do more.

Tim Bourguignon 18:54
So what did you do more after that?

Guilherme Rambo 18:57
After that I released Mac app called browser, he was called browser hub in the beginning, but I had to change it to browser freedom, because someone complains that they already had an app called browser hub. So I had to change its name. And this was an app that allow you to use a different web browser for different websites. So you would set it as your default browser. And you would set up rules like if I click a link, like a YouTube link, open this in Chrome. And if I click, like, Zen caster, link, open it in opera, or whatever, so it would, you would set up rules and you could also set up rules like if I click a link from within the Twitter app, then open it in Safari or open it in Chrome and There were all sorts, there was a lot of stuff you could set up to customize your browsing. Because it was something I needed. I, there were some websites, I always open in a specific browser. And I thought it would be neat to have an app to do that. And that was fairly successful. It was also the first app I sold directly without going through the Mac App Store. So it was also an interesting experience, having to like set up fast spring sharp and dealing with generating license keys, and things like that. So that was also an interesting experience for different reasons.

Tim Bourguignon 20:51
It was there a time you regretted doing this?

Guilherme Rambo 20:54
Not really, I'm not sure what would have happens if I had released it only in the Mac App Store? Because I did release it on both the App Store and directly. So I guess I was selling more than if I only offered offered one way for people to buy the app.

Tim Bourguignon 21:24
Yeah, I was always thinking, was it worth the effort? If you have the App Store on one end, and you sell it on the side as well, but you have to do all this work? In addition to it?

Guilherme Rambo 21:34
Yeah, it's not actually that hard. When I go back and think about it, I think it took me like, two days of work to get the app up and running for direct distribution. And these days, you have better tools than I had back then. Like there's stuff like Babel, which has like an SDK, you can drop in and it does Everything basically, back then I was like more rolling my own. But wasn't that hard. Of course, there's some maintenance you have to do. And when you release new versions, you have to first release. I mean, you have to release both the new version for the Mac App Store and the direct version. But I don't think it's worth doing. Especially if you want to like, get some of the 30% back that Apple takes from you. You can always Yeah, you can direct your customers more towards your fades directly versions so that you get those 30% extra, you can like maybe charge a little bit less so that you get like 15% back maybe. Also, I never tried subscription based apps. I've never released an app that was a subscription. So I don't know These days if maybe going with subscription would be better. I guess it depends on the

Tim Bourguignon 23:06
app, because you don't have an app that would suit the subscription model. Or

Guilherme Rambo 23:12
there's a reason for that. I mean, like, as these days any app suits the subscription model, right, because it looks like every app is moving to subscriptions. But yeah, yeah. But I have like, I have my main apps that are mostly maintained and that make me money, our air buddy for the Mac, and cheapy studio for iOS. And I guess I could move both to subscription if I wanted to, but I don't know it doesn't, doesn't feel right to me. It doesn't feel like it would be the best for the users and like guess maybe I would make more money if I did that. But I have also worried about the consequences and also, implementing subscriptions is not as easy as it should be some kinda kind of maybe waiting to see if Apple will improve. That's it seems like a nightmare to test and a nightmare with App star review. I see all the time people complaining that they've they've had this app that has a subscription for over a year in the app store and they release $1 one bug fix update, and it's rejected because of the subscription. like crazy stuff like that. So I'm kind of avoiding that for now.

Tim Bourguignon 24:39
I understand. I had a Windows Phone for a while I was the one having a Windows Phone for a while. And I tested all the subscription models and how you could create apps like this. It was a pain. Yes. And I decided not to do it at the end. Exactly the same reasons why it's just not worth it to complicate it. Absolutely. So let's talk about eveready and chibi studio. How did you get the ideas for these two apps?

Guilherme Rambo 25:08
So let's start with chibi studio, which came first. So back in 2016, Apple introduced the iMessage App Store. And the iMessage. App star was interesting. It was a new app store. And when there's a new app store, there's always the possibility of course these days with don't think of that anymore because of the history. But there was this thinking that we could see a new like gold rush for apps because there was this new app store, which was the iMessage App Store. I remember watching the session, and they were talking about how you could make iMessage apps. So just as a refresher, you have two types of iMessage At least you had two types back then you had sticker packs. And you had apps which could actually run code. So sticker packs were just static flats, images as stickers that people could drag into the message. And apps were real apps they ran inside of iMessage. And I remember watching the the demo was, someone would send you like, parts of an ice cream, and you would add something to the ice cream and then the person would add something else to the ice cream. So you would like builds a an ice cream with your friend over iMessage and I thought that was pretty cool. And I thought, why don't we do the same but for chibis which are these kids enemy characters from the Japanese culture. So I talked to her A friend of mine, we used to watch animate together when we were teenagers. And I came up to him and I was like, why don't you like draw these chibis and you like, have a layer for the hair and the layer for the eyes and told him how to structure the TVs in sketch. And like make like two hairs and two eyes and just make like two variations of each part. And I'll see what I can do. And I he sent me the assets and I quickly brought up like a prototype and showed it to him. And I was like, why don't we do this, like this sounds cool. Like I can send you a chibi with no hair and you can add hair to chubby and you can send it to me back. So that was like the initial idea and fortunately, almost at the time we've shipped the app. So iOS 10 came out in probably September 2016, with support for iMessage apps. And I think like a week before, or maybe it was 15 days before, I decided to make it into a standalone app as well. So in the beginning was going to be just an iMessage app, you could only access it inside of iMessage. So I decided to make it be an iOS app as well, that happens to have an iMessage app. And that was the best decision I've ever made because the iMessage app turned out to the iMessage App Store in general turned out to be kind of a flop. So it didn't really work out. And the standalone app was a big success and like got featured by Apple in some places and Still going strong to this day. So there was a very good decision. I think if we had gone with just an iMessage app, the app wouldn't exist anymore.

Tim Bourguignon 29:10
To be honest, I haven't had never realized they were iMessage apps, I'd realized there were stickers, but I never heard about the iMessage apps, actually.

Guilherme Rambo 29:20
But see, this is an interesting point. Because this was something that helped us so. And this, this is an interesting topic for people who are listening who are maybe thinking about making their own indie app someday. It was totally worth it for us doing the iMessage app. Because since most iMessage apps were just sticker packs, so they were they were this thing that shows a list or grids of little pictures at the bottom that you can tap or drag. Most apps were just That. And ours was like, one of the very few apps like it was, I think I counted like 10 actual apps when the iMessage app initially launched. So I remember we sent the beta to some people, including vtg, from macstories. And he included our app in his review, because it was, he grabbed his attention because it wasn't just a sticker pack was this dynamic thing that you could create your own stickers, and even in collaboration with their friends. So what I mean by this is that you should not disregard something like this when Apple releases a new technology, even though we may not pan out in the end, being one of the first, even if like it doesn't really mean much. In the end, it will get you some visibility and they will grab people's attention and it will grab the media's attention. And it will likely also grab Apple's attention if you can use a new technology or a new framework in an interesting way. That's one of the things you can do to get your app featured both by Apple and by the media. Yeah, that's the analogy of the big fish in a small pond, right? Mm hmm. What about the air buddy? So everybody is more recent. I released it in January last year. Was it last year? I get lost in time? Yes, it was last year. 2019. So I love airports. I've been using them since they came out I think rates since releasing everybody I actually have pretty much every single model of headphones or earbuds that Apple makes and up beats makes because it's it's for work. That's a

Tim Bourguignon 32:04
good excuse. Of course, you have to test.

Guilherme Rambo 32:08
Yeah. I mean, it does help that I have them because I can test with the real device. But anyway, I and I use my Mac most of the day as most developers do. And every now and then I need to use my air pods with my Mac. And it was a bummer to me that I could not use my air pods with my Mac as easily as I could with my iPhone, and especially that I couldn't just open up the case next to my Mac, and see the status display that we see on the iPhone. And also that there was no equivalent to the batteries widget on the Mac. So I went exploring and I figured out I could make it since the Mac is still fairly open. And you don't have to ship stuff in the Mac App Store. So you have some freedom as to the API's you can use and how integrated with the system you can be. So yeah, so I decided to make it and initially I was going to make this little thing that was going to be just for myself, and I was actually planning on open sourcing it. But after I started posting about it on Twitter, I noticed like this incredible amount of interest in this idea. So I kind of shifted gears and decided that it was worth it, making it into a product, which is more work of course, but I could likely make some money out of it and that would make me be able to support them. Better and for longer and keep updating it so that that's what I did. And I released it. I think it was end of January last year. And it's been going very well.

Tim Bourguignon 34:11
And you say both use apps are actually half of your paycheck for your time. Yeah, pretty much. That's, that's really cool. Congratulations. Thank you.

Guilherme Rambo 34:21
Yeah. So I think also there was a, there was an element of good timing with the release of everybody. Because the and this was like a complete coincidence. I didn't plan on like, oh, let me do it now because of this. But I remember it was right after there were all of these means coming out about airports. I don't know if you remember people talking about Oh, if you have a positive rich, and this kind of made AirPods mainstream in a way they weren't before. And this made it so many people ended up buying our buddy who are not like tech people, because initially I thought only our like Apple developer or Apple enthusiasts niche would buy the app. But turns out many quotes, regular people also bought the app. And that was very, very good for its sustainability.

Tim Bourguignon 35:34
Did you do anything special in creating the UI, the user flow experience, etc, to be able to attract both technical and non technical customers?

Guilherme Rambo 35:46
Yeah, I mean, the way I designed the app, I think it's very common for when a developer makes an app to come at it from the perspective of the The developer and the Tinker that they are. And don't get me wrong. I am a Tinker. It's actually in my Twitter bio, I think so. But you'll see these apps sometimes. And they have like all of these options, and you have to configure lots of things. And there are all these knobs to fiddle with. And that's not something that's conducive to a good user experience. And that's the reason why Apple's stuff has so little preferences usually. So the way I approached everybody, at least in the beginning, and I try to keep it that way, as much as possible was, what if Apple had implemented this stuff on the Mac? What would it look like? How would it work? And that's how I approached it. So it's pretty much this invisible app. It keeps running and doesn't have an icon anywhere, you can add the widget to the Notification Center if you want to. But when you open up your airports case next your Mac or you like turn on your bits headphones next year Mac, it pops up this UI just like it does on iOS. And that's the way it works. And I think it has this element of magic to it that people enjoy. Of course, after the first release, I started getting feature requests and feedback and I am working on a new version of the app that's going to have a little bit more stuff that can be soothing for the tinkerer types, including myself, but its primary goal is to bridge the gap between these devices and your Mac in the way that Apple does. Do and I can of course, sprinkle more stuff on top. That's the people who want extra things can have it.

Tim Bourguignon 38:08
That's cool. That's really cool. And where does 95 make fit in the picture?

Guilherme Rambo 38:13
So, I, I've always been into reverse engineering, something I've been doing since I've been developing basically. And when I started doing naturally, I started doing reverse engineering on Mac stuff and iOS stuff when I moved to this markets. And I noticed that even though Apple is this very secretive company, and they don't like talking about the future releases and stuff, they sometimes and I would say often forgets some hints in code about what's coming up. And this blue up in 2017, when they released a firmware for the home pod, which wasn't out yet. And many people, including myself started started looking through it. And I actually found a glyph. That was the front face of the iPhone 10, which wasn't released, wasn't announced and had the knotch and had no home button. So that was a big deal at the time. And I posted it on Twitter. And that that was like the thing that projected me into the apple news cycle the most I had found some things before and I had done some some stuff like this before, but that was like the, the turning point basically, then nine to five Mac approached me and they offered me to write for them. So they were like hey, thank you. Instead of tweeting, why don't you write it here? So that's what I did. Actually, I'm actually in a bit of a writing hiatus right now I'm focusing more on my own blog ramble codes where I write about developments, basically development tips and tricks. So, yeah, but I'm still part of 95 max stack trace is parts of 95. Mac stack traces the podcast I do with john Santo. And I also write about other stuff like app, new app releases or like general Apple news.

Tim Bourguignon 40:37
A couple of words about stacktrace. How did it get good born? was it was it part of native MX before or was it an idea a few and, and they got into integrated afterward?

Guilherme Rambo 40:47
We started independently. So john approached me and he he was listening to many Apple podcasts and they always talked about the stuff I was finding And my stories and things like that. And he was like, Hey, why don't you have your own podcast where you talk about this stuff? And, and I can be your host. And I was like, Okay, great. And actually was funny because I was already thinking about starting my own podcast. And I was actually thinking about inviting john to be my co host. So we kind of had the same idea at the same time. And that happened because we had recorded two podcasts before together two episodes. We had recorded an episode of the AI freak show where it was just me and him. And also I was on his podcasts with by somehow so we noticed that we had a good podcasting chemistry

Tim Bourguignon 41:47
and how did it get integrated into nine to five Mike How was the year the process like?

Guilherme Rambo 41:53
Well, since we're talking about so many stories that were on nine to five Mac and I was already writing for them. And they had this idea of like becoming more of podcasting network. They have lots of shows now. They invited us to move the show there. And it's good because we were also starting to think about having sponsors we were doing it's like with no sponsors or anything back then. And they are they had all of the infrastructure to like, have sponsors for the show and of the, the bureaucracy that we didn't want to deal with. So

Tim Bourguignon 42:38
we joined them. I'm interesting and just asking for a friend, you know, that's a, this is something I would be would be very cold to do. Integrating my podcast somewhere else. That's, that's, that's something I'm not ready for. So it's interesting. Cool. Okay, cool. Cool. Cool. Um, if You had one advice to give to somebody starting development on Mac or iOS today? What would that be?

Guilherme Rambo 43:08
The best advice I have is an advice I've given before. And I always give to people when they ask me this question is put your work out there. And don't be too worried about people's response. Because I'm often approached by people who are aspiring indie developers, or they are just getting started with iOS and Mac stuff. And they are scared of putting their work out there. It's kind of like the person who likes drawing and they don't want any see anyone to see their drawings or they write, but they don't want anyone to read what they're writing. Don't be like that. Like, put your work out there. Release. If you can, like put an app in the App Store, no matter how simple it is or it doesn't have to make you any money, you can be free, just so you can get a taste of what that's like. And that can be a really good way for you to improve on your skills and have a complete understanding of the whole process. Even if you end up joining a company where you don't have to do with App Store releases and stuff like that, where there's like a marketing team that does that. Having the big picture understanding of the whole process of putting something out there is definitely going to be an advantage for you. So that's my advice.

Tim Bourguignon 44:45
Thank you very much. So where could the listener continue this discussion? Would Twitter be the appropriate please?

Guilherme Rambo 44:51
Absolutely. You can find me on Twitter. I am at underline inside. I'm also writing on random Both codes, which is my blog. And you can find the stack trace podcasts on nine to five mac.com.

Tim Bourguignon 45:08
Awesome. Thank you very much.

Guilherme Rambo 45:10
Thanks for having me.

Tim Bourguignon 45:11
And this has been another episode of developer's journey. We will see each other next week, bye. All right, this is Tim from a different time and space with a few comments to make. First, get the most of these developer's journey by subscribing to the podcast with the app of your choice, and get the new episodes automagically, right when the air. The podcast is available on all major platforms. Then, visit our website to find the show notes with all the links mentioned by our guests, the advices they gave us, their book, references and so on. And while you're there, use the comments to continue the discussion with our guests or with me, or reach out on Twitter or LinkedIn. Then a big big THANK YOU to the generous Patreon donors that help me pay the hosting bills. If you have a few coins to spare, please consider a small monthly donation. Every pledge, however small counts. Finally, please do someone a favor, tell them about the show today and help them on their journey.