Sara Vieira 0:00 So at a certain point, I remember that my dad made a website for himself. And, and if you need to understand that I was a very emo teenager. So I was very angry all the time, because I wanted to leave this town and I don't know. And the point is, my dad showed me the website, and I just like, looked at him. And I was like, Dad, like, I love you and everything. I don't think I said the sport. But this kind of looks like shit. And it did. And he looked at me and it was like, this was in Dreamweaver times and he was like, Well, can you do better? And I was like, Yeah, I can definitely do better. I was like, you don't know how to make website only No, fucking learn how to make websites. Google got them website. And that's how I started to learn how to code to prove my dad wrong, pretty much.
Tim Bourguignon 0:53 Hello and welcome to developer's journey, the podcast bringing you the making of stories of successful software developers to help you on your upcoming journey. My name is Bourguignon and today I received Sara Vieira. Sara is a developer at CodeSandbox, a GraphQL and an Open Source enthusiast. She is a frequent conference Speaker and was a pre-corona airport expert.
Sara Vieira 1:15 Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Tim Bourguignon 1:17 The show exists to help the listeners understand what's your story look like, and imagine how to shape their own future. So, as always, let's go back to your beginnings. Where would you place the stars of your developer's journey?
Sara Vieira 1:33 When I was a teenager, I liked computers. And I got really lucky because in Portugal, there was this program that will just give away free computers to poor kids. Since I wasn't actually like really poor. I had to pay like 150 Euros, but I got a computer, which was really good. Honestly God bless that thing, it made a lot of like, people really happy and he probably gave a lot of jobs and it was a really nice thing. The point is I got a computer and my dad is a 3d designer, like you make buildings and stuff. And when I got a computer, I started playing with just a bunch of stuff. And just Photoshop from Photoshop to cinema 4d and After Effects trying to see like, I knew that I wanted to do something with computers, but I didn't know like, what the fuck I wanted to do with computers. And so like, I was just trying pretty much everything and like going on forums and doing you know, those like little banners that you did at the bottom of forums, to profess your love for your favorite band.
Tim Bourguignon 2:35 I remember that.
Sara Vieira 2:36 Yeah, though, those were great. So at a certain point, I remember that my dad made a website for himself. And and if you need to understand that I was a very emo teenager. So I was very angry all the time, because I wanted to leave this town and I don't know. And the point is, my dad showed me the website and I just like looked at him and I was like, Dad, like, I love you and everything I don't think I said this. But this kind of looks like shit. And it did. And he looked at me and it was like this was in Dreamweaver times, and he was like, Well, can you do better? And I was like, Yeah, I can definitely do better. I was like, you don't know how to make website only no fucking learn how to make websites, got the website. And that's how I started to learn how to code to prove my dad wrong, pretty much. And I remember that after that, I didn't know that you could actually make money out of coding. I didn't know he was a job. She was actually quite stupid. If you think about it. I thought it was just things that people did on their spare time, you know, I don't know. And yeah, that's how I started learning how to code. I started with Dreamweaver, and then HTML, CSS, and what's the name? WordPress. Yeah, and PHP, obviously.
Tim Bourguignon 3:52 Yeah. Oh, I remember the dreamweaver time, that was painful. Making some table designs with rounded corners.
Sara Vieira 4:03 I literally learned coding the time where tables were dying.
Tim Bourguignon 4:07 Okay, Lucky you.
Sara Vieira 4:09 Yeah, it was on the flex time. So I was really lucky like, a lot of tutorials will stay on tables, but that's not what people used for the last year or something. So I think I learned programming in the super great time to be soft like look for no space or gifts.
Tim Bourguignon 4:24 Hmm. How did you learn?
Sara Vieira 4:27 Mostly YouTube. I already spoke decent English. So I could learn from English stuff that wasn't really a problem for me. So I learned with the help of the internet
Tim Bourguignon 4:42 Pretty much self taught.
Sara Vieira 4:44 Yeah, I was pretty much self taught. Yeah, there was a lot of. I remember it was like, tutsplus or something. I think it was. They used to have a lot of like fundamentals of HTML, CSS, and PHP, and I learned there. And then it was also a lot of you do. I learn a lot from you too.
Tim Bourguignon 5:03 Do you remember when you transition from having fun and proving your dad wrong to, hey, there is more to this than what I've been seeing so far. And maybe it could be something that takes over my, day job and not just my hobbies.
Sara Vieira 5:22 That's the thing, my only day job, except for a week where I worked in a restaurant was a programmer. So I worked a week in a restaurant, but that was about it. So like I finished high school, my hometown, and I couldn't really go to college to university or college. I didn't have enough money or grades. But let's let's keep it let's say with money. I didn't have enough money. And so I went to this, like really? It was like a year and a half course of multimedia because the thing was that they taught you. They gave you an internship. And I wanted to get an internship at like a not a startup. I wasn't cool. At an agency. And yeah, I think that's when I realized was like, slightly before that. Someone had to make the websites for businesses and shit, pretty much. And yeah. And then people started asking me to make them websites. And I was like, I think this is an actual job. And I started researching and it was an actual job. Pretty much. But yeah, my first job was actually as a developer. Besides that week, I worked at a restaurant, which I spilled beer on three different people, I think.
Tim Bourguignon 6:36 As you do when you start in the serving industry, that's not an easy job.
Sara Vieira 6:44 I have a lot of respect for people.
Tim Bourguignon 6:47 Yes, I do as well. Okay, so you started out as a web developer right away?
Sara Vieira 6:53 Yeah. I started as a an intern on like everyone, like an unpaid intern. That's how you do it in Portugal. And I started as a web developer pretty much as a WordPress developer started in those one of those, like, bottom of the scrape kind of like, I'll explain what I'm saying is they were really nice people. What I mean is that they weren't the kind of like agency that made like websites in like a day kind of thing. So yeah, I started there. And I was basically just making WordPress websites. That's how I learned a bunch of WordPress.
Tim Bourguignon 7:28 Yeah. So plugging together. WordPress, WordPress themes, WordPress plugins, and then customizing a little bit for the for the customer. Yeah. And serving on ice.
Sara Vieira 7:40 Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, that was about it. It wasn't that hard, per se, but it was very like it was supposed to be very fast base. So I eventually stayed at that job. And I think one of the funniest things is that I was working with someone there. So I was the intern. He was the developer and he quit halfway through. So I think as an intern, I was actually a senior engineer, because they didn't hire anyone else until I quit. I was like, you need to hire someone, but they're like, are you finishing things? And I'm like, but I'm dead inside. I'm 19.
Tim Bourguignon 8:16 What do you remember fondly from this this time?
Sara Vieira 8:21 I remember that everything was new. And I think I think that was amazing because, like, everything was new to me, like a lot of things, pretty much 90% of things were still new. And also, I remember that at this, at this time, pretty much I was also working, like working as making articles for people. That's also how I learned a bunch. At this time, I think it was for web designer depot at the time was kind of big and developer drive. So I was making articles for them. And I remember what I remember more fondly, is actually the article thing. Like I can't do articles anymore. Like it broke me completely. But at the time, like I remember how much I learned to make these articles. I remember that very very fondly. And the paycheck that was nice after they started usually under the table with no actual league. Yeah, that's very sad. Yeah. Point is interest um, there was for like three months well my internship Oh then I got there they didn't actually hire me they put me in another internship but this one was paid by the government give me a lot of free shit. I guess I should still live there. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so I started working there as an intern but like it was was a an actual like, intern. I got paid by the state and everything. And yeah, the guy. The thing that I remember most fondly, was that everything was new. Is it something? I think right now I just get more frustrated when I have no idea what I'm doing than I did back then. Like, I think back when you're starting out the fact that you have no idea what you're doing is expected kinda like and it's kind of exciting because there's more things that you can learn. But after a while, you're just like, I should know this. Why don't I do this? And I think the thing that I remember more fondly is the wonder I used to look at things I didn't know. Instead of being like, why don't I knew this? I should know this kind of thing. Does that make any any sense? Huh?
Tim Bourguignon 10:28 Yeah, yes, it does. Yes, it does. And is it is it still something that excites you to to explore new domains that you don't know?
Sara Vieira 10:39 Yes. Like, I like to explore new domains. But unfortunately, that's the thing. I think you get to a point where like, you kind of just start doing where you're best at kind of, and going back to zero is hard, like mostly on your pride as a person. You're noticed like, I've been at this for like, seven years. And now you're telling me to start again. And I still want to do it. But a part of me is also ashamed of doing those things of going back to the store. For example, I was trying to learn Arduino, which seems okay, right? I got so frustrated because I couldn't follow this.
Tim Bourguignon 11:18 I totally understand that.
Sara Vieira 11:21 Like, I feel like you pride kind of gets like hurt a tad, you know. And it's like god damit. I gotta go back to the s tart when I didn't know anything. And I think it's also hard for us as web developers, because we're so used to like a fast loop of like, you screw something up. It's right there. And it's like, it usually tells you what it is in case of like when it's stuff like Arduinos and monitors just like error and you're like, thanks error or something broken. You're like, thanks. I spent like three days trying to connect like, one of those tiny LCD screens to show the fucking weather. It still wasn't right. But it showed something. There is Arduinos don't keep time, so I couldn't have a clock. Yeah.
Tim Bourguignon 12:11 Have you tried all the development besides Arduino and web to open something like like Windows or Linux or batch processing? So server side stuff?
Tim Bourguignon 14:25 It's hiding the pieces you don't want to see it's hiding the, the the boiler plate. That is not the coding per se. It's the it's the deploying. It's the the infrastructure. I'm sure some people have that kick. But if it's not the right then yeah, it's definitely not mine.
Sara Vieira 14:44 I need to do my SSL certificate again. God damit. I've tried to make it automatic like five times it just doesn't work. And also I lost my password so I have to log in through the terminal inside of digitalocean. This is why I like need Netlify and Zeit.
Tim Bourguignon 15:04 I put all my websites on SSL something a year ago. So I looked at the tutorial and it looks so easy. I said, Okay, screw it, I have to do it. It's not it's not sincere, you should not have HTTPS nowadays. Just switch everything. And then 10 hours later, everything was broken. And it took me two weeks to sort out what really was happening and where the problems were. It was so painful.
Sara Vieira 15:34 Like I do I use. I use the same tutorial from Jason Lengstorf on how to do like our deployed every single time I you just go to the same tutorial, I find it on the internet, and I do it and that's it. That's how I do it. Every time it takes me like five minutes to find that tutorial, and then go through the list of things and then find the SSL thing.
Sara Vieira 15:59 like,
Tim Bourguignon 16:03 I'm willing to bet that Jason wrote this for himself to remember what he has to do. Ever has to do it again.
Sara Vieira 16:13 Definitely, there is no other way. No one does this out of fun. Because like you have images for this usually, but I was just not like I was not like, No, I'm gonna do a Docker image. That's easy. So that's what I should do. Right, right. No. Why would you do that?
Tim Bourguignon 16:30 Says no one ever.
Sara Vieira 16:32 Exactly.
Tim Bourguignon 16:34 I'd like to commit to a comment that you you made previously. You said in this in this internship, you were writing articles. And then you said you can't do that anymore. Oh, I wrote too many.
Sara Vieira 16:44 Oh, you wrote too many.
Tim Bourguignon 16:45 Okay. But you still you're still writing on your blog?
Sara Vieira 16:48 Yeah, but I don't really like I think I got to. I can't write. I don't know, man. I just can't find that much joy in writing articles anymore. Like I write for my blog I used to write while I was in wild tea. And usually my blog is more personal or, like when I have really think I have something to teach, like the book or something. But in terms of articles, that part of me died.
Tim Bourguignon 17:16 But the public speaking is then the way you chose to scratch your own itch in terms of teaching and explaining to people
Sara Vieira 17:26 Yeah, I do a lot of like, I used to do a lot of public speaking and also like, I try to do workshops as much as I can, as well. Um, and I try to do videos sometimes. But uh, yeah, mostly it was the public speaking then the book I'm writing now, because I tried to write a lot of articles, but I also like, over the years I've gotten like, my wife has to review everything for my book like twice, because I started writing as like I speak which means that sometimes Words are missing. So they're just not there. Like, and I do a lot of things like, like, like, and there's a lot of like commas missing. It's not the best. Like, I think I kind of forgot really a how to write without having a wife stare at it for an hour and be like, what the fuck does this even mean? And I'm like you mean is this and she's like, Oh, that makes so much sense. First of all problem. But there are so many things. Like, there are so many packages for everything. And there are so many people saying different things that I find it hard to actually break know, what things to use, what things are actually good for people to use. And basically, what I wanted to do was to put everything that I wanted into one place. Does that make sense? So I wanted to get what I wanted to do was put everything that I've learned over the years about doing web development, about doing react and about two packages that I've used and actual examples for hooks and stuff and put them in a book, put them somewhere where people can look and have an actual opinionated version of things because I feel like that's something that's a bit missing. In, in the React world, there is not a lot of people trying to make opinionated things because it's, it's your word out there, kind of and it's hard to get your word like, How do I explain this? Like, it's fine if people shit on your code, because it's not real. But it's your opinion. It's worse when people shit on your opinion. Does that make sense?
Tim Bourguignon 20:37 It does. And the the question I have is, React in itself is a kind of an opinionated way of solving problems. So I'm wondering why you felt the urge to to add a second layer of opinionation on top of React, which is already in my opinion, opinionated.
Sara Vieira 20:58 I've had a lot of people ask me what to use for random stuff, and not quite understanding hooks like different types of hooks. And mostly just asking me like, is this library go to what should I use for this? Andand like think people using the wrong thing and buy the wrong thing. I mean, like you start a small project and you start using like this gigantic, a 30 packages that you don't need, and I feel like and I think that's the main thing that I'm trying to like, get out of the way, if that makes sense. Like, is it?
Tim Bourguignon 21:34 Is this a sign that a framework or let's backtrack a little. When you have a feeling that such a guide is needed, is this a sign that the framework is actually solving more problems or having more ways to solve problems, then there probably should be?
Sara Vieira 21:54 I think the problem is in my case, is that the there is no correct way of using it. So the thing is, for example, like if you use Angular, they tell you what to use in general. And if you use, what's the name view, sorry, I like to I don't know what it is, that's a thing. So like, if you use view, there's a bunch of stuff there are in the in the docs that tells you like, we're not forcing you to use a like view router, but it's the one we use. So like, that would be a good idea. If you want to use that, and the React community doesn't like to react to dev tools don't really do that. reactive to sorry, the reactive, Doc's don't really do that. And that kind of creates this problem where it's cool. Like, you have this, this framework where you can do whatever you want, but you kind of get stuck in the you can do whatever you want. And it's scary because you don't really know where to start because you have too much. I think, honestly, you have too much freedom. And it may be an issue where there's no one telling you the right way to go. That may be the problem. Does that make sense?
Tim Bourguignon 23:10 Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Exactly what I was expecting, but I'm not an expert in this. I've worked with Angular and I haven't really looked into Vue and React. But that's what I would expect, if such a book is needed. that So
Sara Vieira 23:28 Yeah, I feel like for example, the Vue community is kind of okay. But the Angular community, for example, doesn't need that, because it already has this, like, it already has the, the most of the things that are already in the dogs and most of the things are the things that already come with a framework. So it's not really needed and that's a bad and a good thing. So like, I feel like we have this kind of stuck in this middle ground, where it's like you can use whatever you want. If people are like, that's cool. Wait, what. Can you give me some like options? And they're like no you can just use whatever you want and do it oh but but what. Shit.
Tim Bourguignon 24:15 Yeah, I guess you can do both ways you can be the very restrictive way like like rails was for instance or use was there is really one way to do things and if you go out of the way it's gonna be a mess and it just doesn't work and if you follow exactly what's what DHH had in mind, then it works perfectly or you go the complete other way and you have a sandbox and you can do whatever you want in there and should you yourself in the foot and be happy doing it so that's that's the two ways that they're that they are I think actually if you does it a good way with like, you're gonna use what everyone will use this though. How do they do that? Is this merely well crafted Doc's?
Sara Vieira 25:02 Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. It's like you don't have to. There's a bunch of like, for example, view x is their version for state management. They're like, there's a bunch of state management tools. We use view x, if you like it. That's cool. It gets updated. One view gets updated. And that's about it. Like they made a choice. And I think that's an I think that's important as well.
Tim Bourguignon 25:25 What would the React committee... I'm not sure who is who is steering React to that. It came from Facebook, right?
Sara Vieira 25:37 It's still mostly still a Facebook.
Tim Bourguignon 25:39 Yeah. would would Facebook need to create some kind of "this is how we do we use react", documentation and then that would be it?
Sara Vieira 25:49 I think that's also done maybe a problem because react of the three is the one that's not really used for like, it's not the one that was used for creating small stuff. So it's hard. And I think that's also their problem like, view was used was created as a framework for actually creating small stuff and creating like medium sized things. Like if they tell Facebook is like, you know how you should use react with PHP you're like, Wait, what? Yeah, that's how we use it a Facebook may not be the first it.
Tim Bourguignon 26:21 Okay, I see I see. I see your point. Okay. I'm still sticking to the to the book. You created it at first on lean pub.
Sara Vieira 26:37 I wrote it with Gatsby. It's smart, just Markdown. And he uses it's that part's completely open source. It uses puppeteer to spin up a server and basically take photos of in PDF form. And that generates PDFs. And then it also uses the bill to generate a mobi files. I don't know the one I don't know what this the one that's used for Apple books gets generated with a Gatsby build. And the one that's used for kindle has to be manually done, of course, but it's all automated. It's just markdown.
Tim Bourguignon 27:10 Did you use the the feature of lean pub of publishing whi
Sara Vieira 27:15 le you are writing? Yes, yes. I'm actually I got her out of lean pub now. Sign. I need to get it on gumroad because they have EU VAT things that helped me a lot. Uh, but yeah, that was it was there until I almost finished it basically.
Tim Bourguignon 27:33 How was this this? How was his writing process with publishing stuff and probably getting feedback from readers while you're writing the next chapter and maybe wanting to go back and change one chapter and fighting the urge or I don't know. How did that go? This this back and forth.
Sara Vieira 27:54 I really actually enjoy the back and forth and trying to learn because I'm also learning this. That's the thing. That's why I did it openly is because I'm also learning it. So, like, that's what I wanted. What I wanted was the feedback and things that people wanted to see, because I've done a lot of react, but I've not done everything, like, I definitely have not done everything. So there are things that people may still be confused like, that I never even thought about. And I can ask friends of mine what they use. And it was actually a very rewarding experience. In my opinion. There was a bunch of people that gave me feedback, there was also a bunch of people that were like, this is great, and I can't wait until you get to a new version now. So I think it's actually very valuable also for you to see your position in the market. like is this actually gonna sell like, Are people actually gonna buy this you sell it for a low price on lean pub while you're still writing it? And then all of those people obviously will never pay the full price. They will stay on that price. Don't be that person. Don't be that person.
Tim Bourguignon 28:57 Um, did this feedback, change the Table of Contents you had in mind at the beginning?
Sara Vieira 29:02 It kinda added a bunch of stuff mostly about hooks in react. And I think it also added a bunch of like there's this whole can react use effect, which is confusing as hell. And I have this enormous like section about it now because from a lot of feedback from me as well from using it back when I was we were refactoring a lot of stuff and at work and also from feedback from people I realized like yeah, this needs way better explanation than the one that exists right now.
Tim Bourguignon 29:32 Did you have some some aha moments?
Sara Vieira 29:36 While writing book? Oh, yeah, I finally I learned a kind of learned use effect. Kinda I thought I did. But then then ever most probably something. I was like, what? It is probably wrong. You didn't know it was probably wrong. Okay. No, I did learn No, but I think you learn a bunch by writing that. By teaching someone else is the best way to learn. Definitely, definitely.
Tim Bourguignon 30:05 Did it change the way you create your talks? Or did it influence maybe not change?
Sara Vieira 30:13 While writing the book? Me, I wrote one talk only about this use effect thing. So yes, I got a lot of stuff from it that I'm like, this could actually be a 30 minutes explanation. And let's deep dive into this. And let's like find all the cracks and all this stuff that you're like, what? And I think that was the only one because also, you know, Corona. And the last conference I had I was actually MC-ing. So the last conference where I speak, spoke was actually last year.
Tim Bourguignon 30:44 What I realized is when I created a talk, there's always the same sequence of, of deliverables that I go through. It always kind of always start on Twitter, with some kind of discussion with someone then it's evolved into blog post where I just brain dump some ideas and try to formulate something. And then it goes into writing a longer form writing where I really have to structure things and really have to, to put it in a way that makes sense for somebody else. And only then it will become a talk because only then I kind of nailed down the the real idea that's behind and the structure that could explain it in a logical way. And so for me, it's there's always this progression. So that that's why I'm interested in, in writing how writing a book could fit in there. If it's some kind of step in the middle, or if it's something that comes after and after you're done doing the talks and everything then then then there's do the books that I don't know.
Sara Vieira 31:50 Now, the book deal was definitely a talk that came from ideas in the book. And I usually like the thing that I do is not actually like I don't know. Usually I write articles for talks, I write examples and then try to, like, I tried to build, like what I wanted out of, like, for example, if I want to explain something, one particular instance of like a new API or something, I build a good example with that API. And then I start from the beginning. And I start remembering why I wanted to learn that what problem was it solving, trying to pull up a story into there to make it like more like engaging, but instead of doing articles, I do examples, but it's basically the same thing except with examples, instead of articles, because I find it easier to dump ideas in code than in text. For example, if that makes sense makes sense. It does. What What drives you to to teaching others as much as you do? I think I honestly there's a part of me that I learned everything that I know not everything but everything that I know to become a like, slightly above Jr, from the internet, and I feel like I kind of owe it to the internet in a weird way to give it back to random people of the internet. And I feel like it's also important to teach and show your failure so that people don't think you're like a fucking genius or something because we're, none of us are. I mean, some of us are Eva's My boss is like a genius, but in general, and a lot of us are not genius. And anyone can do this. If only you like, don't throw your computer out of the wall and it's the only computer you have.
Tim Bourguignon 33:41 So how often do you throw stuff?
Sara Vieira 33:46 Ah, not that much anymore. Punch keyboards a lot, but then I bought a mechanical keyboard and it was fine. I like 50 euros, I like it. So I try not to punch it. I'd at least punch it with style so that it makes a nice No, no, that's the thing. I've learned that the only way that I don't punch things, or get really angry and like hurt them physically the objects is if I buy expensive objects, so I have a mechanical keyboard and one of those trackpads that's like 120 euros that my company paid for. But still, it was expensive. And as long as it's expensive, my brain is like shall not break. expensive. means money. Remember when you didn't have money? Exactly. If it's like a 20 year old thing, I'm like, Fuck this. realized that this was
Tim Bourguignon 34:43 a good for you. To find me to find how to hack your brain and then and then you got to go. Exactly. That's how you got to do it. You said at the beginning, that you you were very exciting learning new things. So what new things are you learning nowadays? Even if it's not completely so excited, exciting, and you don't want to put it too much into you in the open for fear of, of having to show that. That's not working.
Sara Vieira 35:15 I don't think it's really the having to show I don't mind showing my failures, I mind failing. Like, if I fail, I enjoy sharing them because I think it's important that we also share our failures, but I just avoid
Tim Bourguignon 35:31 and how do you go around this this problem then?
Sara Vieira 35:35 I don't. I don't know. I
Sara Vieira 35:40 I have anxiety problems, and that may have something to do with that. Who knows? Um, yeah. So right now Honestly, I'm learning how to write properly and how to teach. The best way to teach people and how to like actually something which is like really new for me like I have a newsletter, not a newsletter, but like a mailing list for the people who signed up for like, wanting to get some news on the book. And it was the first time I ever emailed more than like, 10 people. Okay, 100 people, and I'm learning all these things, and it's actually quite exciting. And these things are actually quite exciting. It's also incredibly terrifying. But it's also exciting. It's exciting and terrifying, both at the same time. Um, yeah, and I I'm also like, learning a bunch when it comes to state management because of the work that I do. And it's also pretty great. Like, I'm learning how to make really sturdy your why's that are, have really good UX for the person. And that's really nice. So I feel like I'm actually learning a lot lately. Good for you. That's cool. Thank you.
Tim Bourguignon 36:54 Do you have any goal for the future?
Sara Vieira 36:56 I want to get a cat
Tim Bourguignon 36:59 There you go. What is preventing you from getting your cat so far?
Sara Vieira 37:06 You're not supposed to have animals in his house, we only have a rent for one year. So if we renew it, we're getting a cat. Or like we're winning with a cat, or a dog, or whatever you prefer, or getting an animal. Yeah. I mean, I have some stuff. I would like to one day, people to just like, just teach people and that would be my job. Like my very, very terrible and unobtainable and like, very empty dream is to buy a caravan like one of those things you use for camping, like an outdoor caravan and just drive through Europe teaching people how to code known Coronavirus times that sounds like a terrible idea. But he mentioned before Coronavirus times when you didn't get sick by touching someone else. Great. Yeah. Yeah, that's my dream.
Sara Vieira 37:53 No.
Tim Bourguignon 37:54 I have a bunch of pictures going through my brain right now how the hell that could work and it could work.
Sara Vieira 37:59 Cool Yes. Like I wouldn't we first of all, we would need to rent one of those caravans because we're fucking expensive. And I used to camp a lot when I was a kid so extensively. And we need to get one of those fancy Wi Fi hotspots that work everywhere. Except Switzerland will not go around Switzerland. There's plenty plenty of space to to travel around Switzerland. Yeah, we'll go around.
Tim Bourguignon 38:33 But I guess Are you able to to work remotely? I guess. Okay.
Sara Vieira 38:37 Yeah, we're I work remotely and so this my wife, so actually, the word post grown, that could be a good place to start being able to work with travel.
Tim Bourguignon 38:51 I'm looking forward to reading about this
Sara Vieira 38:57 gas station expert. Next
Sara Vieira 39:02 This particular fuck though
Tim Bourguignon 39:08 not just that I was hinting at the the teaching and being on the road and, and really making this this dream a goal if it's if it's something that you would like to do.
Sara Vieira 39:17 Yeah it sounds like something that I would really enjoy also because I used to camp a lot and I like traveling but I hate airports so this sounds like the good and I love driving. I really miss driving. So I live in Berlin like no one there's no need to drive in Berlin. I'm a terrible driver.
Tim Bourguignon 39:37 If you had one advice for people that are self teaching nowadays, what would you suggest some teaching or self thoughts or self teaching so people starting like you did something to teach themselves to program and start their career as as they find it on the internet or something? What would be the the one advice that you would like them to hear?
Sara Vieira 40:03 that like,
Sara Vieira 40:04 Today, it may sound really hard. And tomorrow may sound really hard, but there's gonna be a day where you Wait, you're gonna wake up and you're gonna be like, Oh, this is actually not that hard. And you're gonna have a lot of imposter syndrome. And I'm sorry to say that that never goes away. It's very depressing, but it never goes away. Because you always want to learn more. And there's always more that you don't learn and that you don't know. But that's actually the trait of a very smart person is knowing that there's plenty more to learn than what they know now. So you're smart.
Tim Bourguignon 40:42 Amen. Thank you.
Sara Vieira 40:44 Was it decent?
Sara Vieira 40:45 Okay. I guess that was this.
Tim Bourguignon 40:46 Yes, it is. It is definitely and it is definitely something all of us fight with. Always I have the feeling, there is more, there is more.
Sara Vieira 40:57 And there is. See this thing where it says like, one of the reasons you'll always feel stupid in front of your friends in front of your colleagues is because as the more you learn, the more your colleagues also learn, and the more you change jobs, so you're technically, like end up always being besides people who are as or smarter than you. Which is a good thing as well. But you always feel like you haven't advanced on lunch because you go from being friends with all the juniors to then like, start being mid at another job. And then you start being more friends with the midst and then you're like, God dammit, I haven't learned yet. Still a stupid example. You were never stupid. I mean, we all though, but that's fine with it. But that's where writing a book might come in handy. And then realizing, Oh, I know all this thing that I didn't know before. It was okay. Another thing that I want to say is that if you're interested about something, there's at least there's more people that are interested in that. There's definitely way more people that are interested in that. And if you want to do a talk about something, then honestly anything is fair game. Because if you're interested, I'm definitely someone else's as well.
Tim Bourguignon 42:10 Amen. Yep. Yes it is. Thank you. Um, if the listeners wanted to start the discussion or continue this discussion with you, where should they search for you? Um, I am on Twitter. So my username is @nikkitaFTW on Twitter, and you can find me there and I'll usually always there pretty much. Okay. The The link will be in the show notes for you to click on it. Okay. Do you have anything on your plate for the next weeks or months, maybe the Caravan and teaching?
Sara Vieira 42:53 And finishing the goddamn book one day often. I am saying one day I will finish it. Oh, like I am done and they're like you have a typo. I don't care.
Tim Bourguignon 43:07 It's not finished. It's never finished. It is. Well, she declared, and it's finished. And that's it.
Sara Vieira 43:14 Exactly. No, it will get like updates and stuff. But that's about it. Then I am done. Looking forward to it. Looking forward to it. I'm so excited to be done
Tim Bourguignon 43:33 Sounds magical. Thank you very much. It's been fantastic hearing your story and how you came to being where you are today. That was great. Thanks so much.
Sara Vieira 43:44 Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.
Tim Bourguignon 43:46 My pleasure. And this has been another episode of therapists journey and we'll see each other next week. Bye bye. This is Tim from a different time and space with a few comments to make first get the most of the developer's journey by subscribing to the podcast with the app of your choice, and get the new episodes out to magically right on the air. The podcast is available on all major platforms. Then, visit our website (
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