Coraline Ada Ehmke 0:00 Doing good things is hard. Making changes is hard. And standing up for your beliefs is hard. There's no shortcut. You have to do the work. You have to reflect on what it is your values are. You have to look at the way you live your life that includes your job. And ask yourself if you're living your values, because if you're not living your values, they're not really values.
Tim Bourguignon 0:33 Hello, and welcome to developer's journey, the podcast bringing you the making of stories of successful software developers, to help you on your upcoming journey. My name is Tim Bourguignon, and today I received Coraline Ada Ehmke. In 2014 Coraline invented the code of conduct that you see in almost every open source repository. She's an internationally acclaimed speaker, a writer, an engineer who works diligently to promote diversity, equity and inclusivity in open source communities and the tech industry as a whole. Coraline, Welcome to devJourney.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 1:12 Hi, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Tim Bourguignon 1:16 It's my very pleasure, believe me. So the show exists to help the listeners understand what your story looked like and imagine how to shape their own future. So as always, let's go back to your beginnings. Where would you place the start of your developer's journey?
Coraline Ada Ehmke 1:34 I'd have to go pretty far back. Honestly. Um, when I was a kid, I was maybe seven or eight years old, my dad was an electrical engineer, the kind who works in a factory and gets his hands dirty and works around high voltage. Well, at the factory or my dad worked, they had a they had a computer and it was a I'm not To surface a mainframe or exactly what it was, but it had no display. So when you entered a command into the computer, it would spit out your command in the output on tractor feed papers that paper with the holds down the side. And my dad enjoyed during his breaks or if he is slacking off, I don't know, he played, he played a game on the computer, which I think was called adventure. Um, and he would bring home the printouts from his work, including his games, and I would read through his game transcripts. And I was utterly fascinated. And I decided right then that I wanted to make a game. So it was summertime when my dad was at work, and he came home from work and saw what I had done to a living room. Um, there were note cards, and they were taped together. With yarn and what I basically done was I made a tree of my own adventure game. So you would go from place to place by following the yarn. And if you entered a certain command there would be a another note card to say what happened. And you know, I did invented this entire game, this network of choices and my dad side after I explained to him what I had done, he said, we're getting a computer
Tim Bourguignon 3:31 That brings a pseudo code at a whole different level when you have to do it with a with papers and and tiling your whole floor to have a program.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 3:42 Well, Ada Lovelace wrote all of her programs in her journal, so it's not much different.
Tim Bourguignon 3:49 She definitely did, there was no other way to do it back then. Yep. So how do you did go with your first computer? What did you study? are doing Did you code this game? Or do you have to do something else in between?
Coraline Ada Ehmke 4:04 Um, I did start coding on that computer. It was a trs 80 came out in 1977. I believe we got ours in 78. And it was a $600 computer. And I To this day, I can't get a straight answer from my father on how he was able to afford that on an electrical engineer salary. But I am so thankful that we did get it. And I learned to program on that because games, you had to type it in yourself out of magazines, and the only way to store there were no floppies. It was cassette tapes. So if you wanted a game, you had to type it in and very carefully. And I kind of learned from that from typing in other people's code, how to write code myself, and I continue doing that for a while. By the time I got to high school. I was in eighth grade and I took my first computer class My instructor was a man named Mr. Williams. He was a an army that who had a, who'd worked on computers in the army. And our first class assignment was to write a coin toss simulator. So at this point, I'd been programming for about five or six years. And I knew how to write this really quickly. And I was like, this is kind of a boring assignment. So I'll spice it up a little bit. And I did a whole animation, this whole eight bit animation of a hand flipping a coin and the coin landing in the palm, and then it would flash like heads or tails up on the screen. And I was just showing off, you know, but my computer instructor saw that and said, Coraline, you don't belong in this class. I'm going to make a curriculum for you and you're going to help me teach. And I owe so much to Mr. Williams. Because he He did it. He made a course that he designed just for me at my level, and propelled me forward in a way that, uh, in that in a way that was like, pivotal to my life. Um, but that was almost undone. That act of kindness was almost, I'm done. And I was determined at this point, I was about 17 years old, determined to be a game developer. And I went to college, and I took my first computer science class, and our semester long project was to write software for an ATM in C. And I thought about this and I'm like, it's not gonna take been a semester direct to software. And that's kind of a boring assignment anyway, but I tried. I tried my best, but I was so bored and I was so not challenged. It seemed like a waste of time. So I ended up dropping out of school and it's If fate hadn't intervened, I wouldn't have my tech career
Tim Bourguignon 7:04 because of college. So how did fate intervene at that point?
Coraline Ada Ehmke 7:08 Um, well, I kept hacking on my own stuff. I've been programming all my life and nothing was gonna stop me from programming even if I thought I couldn't do it professionally. I ended up in Austin, Texas in the early 90s. And I was working for an engineering hardware company. And I'm a lifelong smoker. Sad to admit, but smoking actually gave me my start. Because I was working in media relations. I did not have a technical job, although I did bring technology to my job. But I'm at 10am and 3pm. All of the smokers in the company and this was the 90 so there were a lot more of us would go outside and take a smoke break. And I was introduced to people that otherwise I would not have ever met. So our DBAs in our in engineers in VPS, and people all over the company. And of course, I gravitated toward the tech people, because we had a lot in common. And we would have great conversations about the burgeoning tech industry and the things we're excited about in programming languages just eking out together, you know, 1995, one of my smoking friends, his name is Dave came up to me and said, Coraline, the company is putting together a web team. And I said, Oh, that's so great. The company is going to build a website. It's about time. Yeah. And Dave said to me, what do you think that's going to do for your career? And that was my break. That was my first professional job in tech. So you join the team as a developer or you joined the team as a media person,
Tim Bourguignon 8:52 steering the development.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 8:54 Now, I was a developer, because I had I built my first website Before mosaic came out, so I built my first website for links, which is a terminal program. That's a web browser. So I, at this point that I was I had been online for a while. And I had the skills I needed to carry out that job. Although I did learn a lot along the way, too.
Tim Bourguignon 9:20 That is cool. That is cool. And indeed, this is the one thing I am jealous about smokers, I don't smoke myself, but I've always been very jealous of your ability to network. Everywhere you go. This is just amazing.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 9:35 It really is. Not worth the cancer but uh, but yeah, you know,
Tim Bourguignon 9:43 when, when the EC grid started, I looked at it really carefully and then reading some papers and see, oh, could I start smoking something that is not nicotine and just pretend and be among the cool kids. But now it's too young for me. I still need to observe this on the space. Okay, so how did that first gig, go creating this website and getting your first professional chops as a developer?
Coraline Ada Ehmke 10:11 It was great. But I was horribly, horribly underpaid. My salary was $16,500 a year. And that, that wasn't gonna work. I just got married, I had a child on the way. So we ended up moving to Chicago, and I got my first webmaster job, believe it or not, um, that was a real job. And, and I had more than doubled my salary. And that was a that was like, that's when I felt like a grown up. You know, I was making enough money that we could buy a house and I felt that was the first inkling of success I felt in my career.
Tim Bourguignon 10:54 That is cool. That is cool. And how did it feel to develop professionally, maybe was with someone else ideas and having to go to go maybe some extra miles that you didn't necessarily decide for yourself versus developing as a hobby, as you've been doing so far?
Coraline Ada Ehmke 11:14 Um, I would disagree with the framing of that question, honestly, because, um, a lot of a lot of the work that I have done in my career is understanding a problem that exists, and using my creativity, to figure out a solution for it. So it's not like someone is telling me what to do. I always tried to get at what is the problem they're asking me to solve. And that opens the gate to lots of creative thinking invention, which I love making something out of nothing. That can be a highly collaborative process and I think it's healthiest when this collaborative I don't think I've ever worked on a product team where Somebody gave me requirements and two weeks of a two week sprint and told me to produce a feature. But I've been very fortunate to have the kind of roles where I have more creative, creative freedom and more autonomy, which is a tremendous privilege. And that has become more true the more senior I get in my, in my career.
Tim Bourguignon 12:23 Yeah, thank thank you for reframing this and lucky you for not really having lived through this. I guess this my own bias that I'm speaking now, of going through this when I was when I was a young engineer and having to, to to do this and then understand that he could be that there is a different way and the scheme later in my career, so thank you for referring this useful but collaborative process. You said it was always part part of your of your engineering journey, this collaborative process. And do you mean that you have been a jack of all trades going from the country Customer all the way to, to the deployment and and being with people all along the way, or did you have some some segments where you were alone? And and and maybe doing specialist work? How do you how do you frame this collaboration? Um,
Coraline Ada Ehmke 13:18 well, I've definitely done both at different points in time. And I'll always continue to do both. I enjoy working independently, but I also enjoy collaboration. I think I learned about collaboration when I was doing consulting, because what I said before about like understanding a problem and being creative about how to solve that, I think that's when I learned that I was working for the digital consulting arm of a big ad agency. And we had some really interesting projects involving automation of marketing materials, automation of Book of building custom textbooks, we did lots of different interesting projects. And I realized pretty early on, this was the waterfall days. So, you know, they were, every project was like a year long project. But I learned how to collaborate with the companies that we're working with, to, um, I realized basically that software alone wasn't the answer. on there are people there are processes and there was the software that they use. But in order to be successful, you have to address all three of those areas. And I learned it the hard way. I made some mistakes along the way. But that's kind of what I took out of that era. And I try to bring that same kind of thinking to the software engineering industry that we all work in today. I tried to bring this license with me,
Tim Bourguignon 14:57 people processes and the software they use How do you evaluate when you're applying for a company? Hold the peoples are taking hold of processes are are created and and the software they use, how do you evaluate this?
Coraline Ada Ehmke 15:13 I was a big proponent back in those days of shoulder surfing. So I actually had my developer, my development team, go on, go on site, the client and walk around to people who are performing the different job functions that we were going to automate. Because I wanted them to see exactly what the daily life was like for the people that we're building software for, and talk to them and ask them like, you know, where do you get your work? What do you do and who, who works on it Next, and kind of uncovering those, those process networks. It's our human process. It takes time, but I think it really pays off.
Tim Bourguignon 15:55 But is this something that you can do before the climbing becomes your your customer?
Coraline Ada Ehmke 16:01 I don't think so I think it's a it's it's collaborative once you build the trust between the two, the two, the two groups of people that is kind of required for collaboration.
Tim Bourguignon 16:12 Okay, I see I see. Yeah, that's that's what I feel as well. And I'm having a real hard time to, to understand how I can avoid poisonous, I wouldn't say poisonous people poisonous environments, before committing to them and then being in the wrong place. Already and having to deal with the with the with less than ideal effect. You see what I mean?
Coraline Ada Ehmke 16:40 Yeah, there's a I gave a talk in Brussels that copied off comm in February of this year before the pandemic really became news. This is my last my last trip and I gave a talk about ethics in open source And one of the people that I talked about quite a bit. And then Berkeley, told a story at a conference that really stuck with me. And I won't tell the entire story here. I'll give you a very brief version of it. It's called the locksmith parable. And the short version is a stranger comes into a locksmith shop and complements locks the locksmith on how competent and amazing the shop, he's the best locksmith that he's ever heard of, and he's done his research for this very important job. There's a safe to be opened, but he won't say who safe it is or even where it is. He will have to blindfold a locksmith to take them there. But if a locksmith agrees to these very strange terms, the stranger is going to make them wealthy beyond his wildest imagination. So the locksmith thinks himself well if if I don't do this job, someone else will and you It's really not my business. You know what he has going on? He's just hired me to do a job. And locksmith does, in fact, open the safe. And the stranger steals the military high tech plan or whatever, and goes on to threaten the entire world with a military that he's on with this top secret weapon. And you have to ask yourself, like, did the locksmith do the right thing. And this, the locksmith has had a responsibility to society to evaluate the motives of the person who would hire them to do the job. And if he had to listen to his conscience, the story would have turned out differently. So we find ourselves in these toxic work environments. And sometimes we say to ourselves, well, if, if it's not me, it's gonna be someone else. But that that only is a way Have shirking responsibility. And it's a it's, it's not helping the situation. It's not really helping other people to do jobs that require you to put aside your conscience. Amen.
Tim Bourguignon 19:15 This is very deep. And this is actually one of the miracle of activism, activities that you've been leading for the past few years. Do you want to talk more about this? I'm sure.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 19:27 I got my start trying to bend the tech industry and open source in particular toward equity and ethics and justice. That all started for me. Around the time of my gender transition in 2014. I asked, I saw this huge change that I was about to make in my life. And I thought to myself, I remember this Winston Churchill quote, when you find yourself in hell keep driving. So I thought maybe the best thing to do would be to figure out everything I didn't like about myself, not just my gender presentation, and just hit a big red reset button. And part of how I executed that was looking at women in tech that I really admired. And thinking about what qualities they have that made me admire them so much. And I made a list. And I thought about ways that I could demonstrate those qualities. And it just became ingrained in who I was and how I think and how I act. But it was a very deliberate process. So a 2014 rolls around, and there's a lot of tech feminist activism going on right then, and I had amazing friends who are at the forefront of that movement. And my, at the time, I was close friends with Ashe Dryden and she had This is the this is the period in time where there's a huge argument about whether conferences should have codes of conduct. So that was only six years ago. And I was really inspired by ashes work to promote codes of conduct at conferences. But it kind of made me think of other places where developers come together and form communities. And I'd seen that happen around open source projects. So I started thinking about, you know, are these are these really communities and I, I couldn't believe that open source projects can indeed spawn communities. And to me a community is about people with shared values, and what are the values of these different open source communities. And then I got the idea that maybe a code of conduct would be an appropriate way for the leaders of open source communities. To be very explicit about the value set their community holds. And that's when the contributor covenant was born. And the contributor covenant has been a wild success. But it was a huge fight to normalize that code of conduct marked down that you see in every every repo. And it was a difficult fight. And it I've even received death threats for my work on codes of conduct. But today, the contributor covenant, it's been adopted by Linux, by Apple by Intel, Salesforce, Google. It's a wild success, and it's part of my legacy. And I learned from that, from that whole process, that ongoing process really, we just released version two of contributor covenant last year. They've learned that if you're diligent and tough enough, and persistent enough, maybe stubborn enough Then you can bring about change in the world. It's possible.
Tim Bourguignon 23:05 This is a very important message. Thank you. I feel that nowadays we we too often have the the feeling that we're just a small pebble, and that we cannot move anything. But this is the this is the the example that that shows that it's doable. And that's that's really cool. And indeed, I can barely remember the the time where conferences didn't have a code of conduct or or open source communities didn't have an open source project didn't have a code of conduct. And as you say, it's only six years ago. Everybody feels it feels ingrained in Yeah, in the community.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 23:40 Well, that's that's my legacy. I think that's a pretty decent legacy.
Tim Bourguignon 23:44 Yeah, you deserve a pat on the shoulder for that. Thank you. Sorry. No, that's cool. That's really cool. Did you do you want to tell us about the the maybe the brainchild of this effort, the people cratic license and the Tikal source project that, that you are driving.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 24:02 Sure. Last year, there was a lot of attention that was being given to a situation at the US border, where Border Patrol agents and ICE agents were committing human rights violations against people who were trying to seek asylum in the United States. And I saw a tweet by a developer named Seth Vargo about how he was ashamed that the company he used to work for a chef was had significant contracts with ice and how he pulled his code off of Ruby gems and GitHub, because he did not want the code that he had written, being used in conjunction with these kinds of of illegal atrocities. And that inspired me to create the Hippocratic license, which is a source available open source software license that prohibits the use of your software in conjunction with violations of the mandated Nations Declaration of Human Rights. And it made a got a lot of attention. And it really spawned the whole idea of ethical source as a movement. I think with the world, being on fire, literally, as it is today. developers want to help. But we also want to make sure that we're not hurting, that we're not somehow enabling other people to use our work to do harm. And this is a demand that has just been building and building and I would like to help us all come together. Think of strategies for bringing ethics back into computing, bringing ethics back into the tech sector, bringing it back to the open source. Because open source one, it's successful, and it's being used in ways that the people who contribute would never consent to. And I want to do what I can to bring on the next stage of the evolution of open source communities where they are also thinking about their ethical responsibilities.
Tim Bourguignon 26:41 Do you think it is possible to maybe enforcing is our own word but I cannot find a better word right now to enforce this, this ethical, ethical handling of our code. Without a body like the like the medical doctors with the prescribed oath or the lawyers, with with with a board of lawyers that are that is kind of fun of overseeing the whole this whole part of the industry and hitting people on the on the fingers if they do something wrong is it is this possible with just the networking of the communities to, to self control and go in the right direction.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 27:36 I think it is a matter of self governance. I think it's a matter of committing and being just like with a code of conduct adoption, it's a way of no participating in ethical sources, a way of standing up and saying, This is what I believe in, and I'm going to put action behind my words. I don't think we need a standards body for ethics, the Hippocratic life. He points to the UN Declaration of Human Rights. That's the founding document of the human rights movement from 1948. And it's not controversial, it's not subject to debate. It's what the world came together to produce. And the enforcement cause in the Hippocratic license actually works toward fairness between the license or the licensee by saying you don't have to go to court, go to arbitration and use the Hague rules and work it out. And if if arbitration goes your way, then you get to continue to use the software and if it goes my way, because I've legitimately called out human rights violations they are companies doing then you don't get to use my software anymore, and it works as expected. But there There's a lot of complexity to change in a license on an open source project. So it's not something that you can do without thinking through and having a plan. But it is an option and the ethical source working group that I lead, we have about 160 people in the working group now, from all around the world, I think 13 time zones, IP specialists, open source maintainers, ethicists, philosophers, journalists, very varied community. And we're working together to figure out other ways that we can take our as a course sensibilities as developers more seriously.
Tim Bourguignon 29:47 That is the fantastic thing. Thank you for that, where I want to play devil's advocate, and I have yet to see a curriculum that really Brings ethics into an engineering curriculum. And so I fear that for students coming out of universities nowadays, if they have not had that part part of it all of a different curriculum or or maybe from their own interest and this is not something that they're that is on their radar it's it's part of the unknown unknowns and when you face your employer saying, well, we are doing some some shady things you don't really know if you're doing harm. But but maybe you do. Maybe you don't you don't feel you know. It is hard to to get into this, this ethical debate with yourself and understand what really what ethics really is when you're focused on something else entirely. So how would you encourage people who want to know more about ethics without stepping into a full philosophical study, to understand more about it,
Coraline Ada Ehmke 30:59 doing good things His heart, making changes is hard. And standing up for your beliefs is hard. There's no shortcut, you have to do the work. You have to reflect on what it is your values are. You have to look at the way you live your life that includes your job. And ask yourself if you're living your values, because if you're not living your values, they're not really values. And so everyone's got to kind of answer that question for themselves. But I do think we need to hold each other accountable. And when people aren't thinking through, there was a tweet that I that I made a few weeks ago that got some traction. It talks about the Facebook, the corporate Facebook Messenger program, and how it had machine learning built in and filtering built in that would alert managers if employees were talking about union ization. And I said on Twitter, some engineer was asked to build this feature and didn't quit their job. And that goes right back to the parable of the locksmith. We have to start standing up for the things that we believe in, in our convictions. And we have to take responsibility for the work that we do and stop delegating our ethics to someone else.
Tim Bourguignon 32:26 And as you say, this is really really, really hard.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 32:30 Yeah, it's hard to do that. It's it's very easy to go along with the status quo. But when the status quo is the world is on fire, is that really the status quo you want to prop up? Good point.
Tim Bourguignon 32:44 Very good point. You said you have to reflect on your values. That means in the first place, you have to know what your values are. Before you can reflect live and see if the what you are doing today is indeed aligned with those values. And I fear this is not something that we do enough.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 33:05 I totally agree with you, it took me 42 years to figure out what my values were. But I did the work. And I'm still evaluating it. It's always changing. I write them down, and I look at them, they I see them every single day at my desk. And that's a good reminder of, of what it is that I want to do with my life. What, how I want to devote my energy, what I want to bring myself to, and it is a process, you have to work it out. It's hard. It's easy to just fall back into routines. But if we're not living a life where the things that we do are in line with what we believe in, then what's the point?
Tim Bourguignon 33:52 Well, I'm going to try to go from there. This is also deep, and I'm reflecting about now. Values now. And the book the book Big Five for life side I read and reread recently and thinking about the no Yeah, kind of what my values are and where I'm going with my life and where I'm going with my, my job. You're putting me into a hard corner.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 34:23 Well change is uncomfortable. Yes it is.
Tim Bourguignon 34:28 Yes it is. But it but it's all so rewarding when you are when you're on the other side and the process is, is is very rewarding and interesting. In itself as as well.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 34:38 And the process is lifelong. You never you're never done you can never say okay, I have high emotional intelligence. I'm a perfectly empathetic person. I figured out everything. Time to relax that that doesn't happen.
Tim Bourguignon 34:57 Do you Did you have a chance to to make toward younger developers through this process, this very process of finding the values,
Coraline Ada Ehmke 35:07 actually, yes. I've been doing a mentoring since 2014, I think. And one of the questions, I did a lot of mentoring for people who are in boot camps in Chicago. And eventually, when they're getting either toward the end of the program, they started asking for advice and interviewing. And I did give them advice about values based interviewing. I told them, you're not going to have a tremendous amount of choice for your first job. But remember this for your second job. When your intern intern interview, you are also interviewing the company. And if you if you want satisfaction in the work that you're doing, you need to find a company that is aligned with one or more of your values and that definitely is not opposed to one or more of your values. So think of the data first think of what your values are. And then think, how can I ask about this? How can I tell if the people I'm talking to believe in the same kind of important things that I believe in and making that part of that interview process and taking some of the control back in the interview process. So that is, that is something that that's advice that I've been giving people for years and years. And although acknowledging or the career people have fewer choices, but eventually they will work their way to the point where they can be picky about where they go to work, hopefully, and they can find a place that aligns with the things that they believe in.
Tim Bourguignon 36:51 yes to all of this. And I just, I'm just lost in my thoughts again, on on one end, I wanted to say The the Coronavirus, nim pandemic help us to to move a bit more toward the working from home and being more able to, to to pick and and and go maybe to a different company, the other end of the, of the globe and, and. And yeah, you really find a company that that aligns with more of of my values and that don't oppose to any of my values. But on the other end the the monkey on my shoulder was saying but the, the locksmith parable that you said at the beginning is even more true because somebody in for instance, less less rich country would then have the ability to take a job that I would refuse and so companies could be less picky and go somewhere else where people don't have the chance to say no to a job and then have their deeds done anyway. So I wanted to say it's a step in a good direction, but I don't know.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 38:04 Well, the problem there's capitalism and I don't think we have enough time to talk about
Tim Bourguignon 38:10 is indeed, Okay, I see your point. That would be the place in interview wise you for for one advice, but you've been giving advices from the beginning. We've made this part of the interview heart. Is there another advice that you would like to give to newcomers?
Coraline Ada Ehmke 38:31 I will share some advice I give to early career developers. And that is that the most important part of being an engineer is not knowing the answer, but being able to find the answer. And I would strongly recommend if you're early career and you're feeling impostor syndrome, and you feel like you have to go to Google or Stack Overflow for everything, sneak up behind the senior engineer and watch them for about 10 minutes and see all the stuff They go go. And I hope that makes you feel better. Because it's about learning to learn. And a developer has to be constantly learning. So you really have to exercise those muscles and learn how to find out the information that you need.
Tim Bourguignon 39:15 This is so true, so true.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 39:18 Thank you.
Tim Bourguignon 39:21 Carol, I this has been fantastic. listening to you to your story talking about ethics and and all the activities that you are leading as a very prominent figure and, and thank you for taking all the blows that you take, for us for our industry to to better all this for the generation to come. This is really, really cool. Thank you very much.
Coraline Ada Ehmke 39:41 Thank you.
Tim Bourguignon 39:43 Um, if the listeners want to continue this discussion with you or start a discussion with you, where should they should they contact you? Where would the appropriate place be?
Coraline Ada Ehmke 39:52 Um, Twitter is probably the easiest way to get my attention on Twitter. I'm @CoralineAda. And if you want to know more about my work, you can go to wherecoraline.codes, which is my fancy vanity URL. And if you're interested in ethical source, ethicalsource.Dev.
Tim Bourguignon 40:12 Awesome, and I will add all those links and some of the links that all the things we should we discussed to the show notes. So just scroll a bit down and all the links should be there. Coraline, thank you very much!
Coraline Ada Ehmke 40:25 It's been wonderful talking to you. Thank you,
Tim Bourguignon 40:27 likewise! And this has been another episode of developer's journey, and we'll see each other next week. Bye bye. This is Tim from a different time and space with a few comments to make. First, get the most of those developers journeys by subscribing to the podcast with the app of your choice, and get the new episodes out to magically right when they air. The podcast is available on all major platforms. Then, visit our website to find the show notes with the old links mentioned by our guests, the advices they gave us, their book references and so on. And while you're there, use the comments to continue the discussion with our guests and with me or reach out on Twitter or LinkedIn. And a big big thanks to the Patreon donors that helps me pay the hosting bills. If you can spare a few coins, please consider a small monthly donation. Every pledge, however small helps. Finally, please do someone you love a favor, tell them about the show today and help them on their journey.