Tim Bourguignon 0:00
This is developer's journey. My name is Tim Bourguignon. Thanks for joining. And we are live. Hey, everyone, this is a first recording I have with more than one person on the other end of the line. Are you still there?

NCrafts 0:21
Yep. Yep,

Tim Bourguignon 0:22
we're here. Yeah. Okay, I have three very special guests tonight. It's re Peter and Max, while the organizers of the N crafts conference that happened pretty much 14 days ago, in Paris. I was there. I had the chance to speak there. And it's craftsmanship conference. But I think we should double back on that and start from the beginning. Um, I guess I'm going to ask we, we help this conference all start? Do you want to give us the pitch and the history about that?

NCrafts 1:02
Yeah, okay. Let's start with the with the story, because it's, it's Shams across the time. In fact, we, before organizing the conference, I used to organize meetups with our, our dotnet user group in Paris. And on since I think it was two to 2011, or 2012. I start with a Google form, asking people if they were interested in organizing a conference. And and in fact, it was just to, to have something bigger than the meetup. Because, you know, in France, around the dotnet, on usually Microsoft technologies, we have Microsoft tech days. And the problem with Microsoft take days is that is mainly a marketing conference, and not a technical conference. And obviously, it's more product oriented conference. So really, with all the outnet people, we we really missed something. So we we we had the needs for an event around

NCrafts 2:32
good practices.

NCrafts 2:35
Open Source, and in the more general way, craftsmanship. So that's, that's the way it started. And then we wait a long time because it was it, it's not that easy to start to a conference. And then in 2014,

NCrafts 2:57

NCrafts 2:59
we have, we had an opportunity with with my friend had one opportunity was quite simple. He made the Greg younger to come to Paris for a training. And it was in March, I think, on the he we started this discussion in March, in fact, and I said to him, if you manage to make Greg to be here in May, maybe we can use it as because if we had Greg for training here, it was an IE it can be a great keynote speaker. And if we managed to make him to be there, then we have our first keynote speaker, and then we just have to, to ask a few friends to come on speak and then we can bootstrap a conference. And that's the that's the way it started, in fact, so it started in 2014 as dotnet software craftsmanship conference, it was just one day two tracks. We bootstrapped it in less than two months. So it was it was quite fun to organize a conference in in less than two months, as you can imagine. And that's that's the way it started, basically. And then after this first edition, we we really felt that we there is really no need to limit the conference. Just to dotnet people, it really doesn't make sense because we as craftsmen, we we we value practices and ideas and sharing knowledge. There is no really no sense to make an artificial by On the on the London Zoo language. So that's why with the second edition, we just organize it as a professional developer conference, we have some very great orientation to suffer preferentially but but mainly his ID. And also, one thing that I had in mind since the beginning is that in France, we don't have any, any international generic conferences, all quite all the conference are French conferences, for French people with French speakers. At some conferences, you have some foreign speakers, but it's always just one talk in one track, and that's all. On the on the other side, you have some very technical conferences, very project oriented, that are maybe in English, but you don't have a big international conference. Generic in English in France, I had in mind that conferences like q con and DC or they have or build stuff, and that's really the thing that I want to bring in France. And that's basically Is it because there is no reason that in France, we don't have international conference, and be able to ear international speakers on exchange with people from other countries. And on because most people don't manage to go to, to outside and have a company to pay for, to to attend friend conference. That's why we we we need to create something like that in Paris, adjust to Well, we're bringing that kind of conference in Paris, as close as possible to people.

Tim Bourguignon 7:14
I'm not really used to the years of the French ecosystem. Still, I mean, I've worked most of my life in Germany anyway. But I would have expected Paris to be a really active conference. sphere, Is it really so? So other solo conferences or international converters? You as you say?

NCrafts 7:39
There is a few very few conferences in in different areas that you can bet are in English, for example, you have dot j s dot scale. You have? I don't know, I think you have next month you have react her up that we will be in Paris. You in the past you had unglert is the Euro the European Angular conference. That was in Paris too. But it's it's very technology oriented. On the other side, you don't have a generic developer conference in English. And in fact, there is not that much generic conference in in France, quite all the conference are oriented to something. One of the biggest conference we have is devoxx. But it's still Java and not that much. Outside Java. You have also a giant conference, you have this Creme de you are also a giant tour that's attended in a lot of cities. You have lien combos, conferences, and a lot of also a lot of web conferences. But as I say it is very is also very still in every conference. There is a specific topic, the you don't have a generic developer conference and mostly conference that that target experienced people. That's also what we look.

NCrafts 9:34
So that's that's a reason we created.

Tim Bourguignon 9:39
Well, and you did well, you did well. And how did you grow since 2014? I have some some numbers in mind, but wouldn't want to lie about that.

NCrafts 9:52
In we started the first year there was I think something around 130 People, it was one day in two trucks. The second year, we had 230 people. It was two days. Two trucks. That one additional truck for Amazon. This year we were free 150. It was two days free tracks and two Amazon tracks. That's basically the numbers. That's quite also. Yeah. Also the speakers obviously, the first year I think we had a 12 speakers the second year they were 26. This year, I think around 50 speakers.

NCrafts 10:49
Yep. 50.

NCrafts 10:50
I confirm.

Tim Bourguignon 10:56
I was really amazed to see that.

NCrafts 11:03
You did? You did really? Well. Um,

Tim Bourguignon 11:08
maybe, maybe one of you, Peter, all max can answer this one. Um, what attracted you? I mean, when when did you start? When did you jump on the on the bandwagon was was? Peter, do you want to answer the one?

NCrafts 11:22
Sure. Sure. Well, basically, the first year, I heard from a friend that there was this conference taking place that was mainly dotnet oriented, and they needed some help to organize. So that basically was a line for me to jump in. And it was a great experience the first year and so much that I joined again for the second and the third. So okay. It was a

Tim Bourguignon 11:50
Yeah. And you're going to go ahead with with the next one, right? Oh, definitely. Oh, cool. How the two mics.

NCrafts 11:58
I knew re from the outnet meetup. And I went to the the first conference and not as an organizer, but as a participant, a happy participant. And then I proposed, really to to help if you need some some more help to, to organize the next one. And that's when I jumped in, actually, what the second edition? And well, we'll go for the next one as well, I think,

Tim Bourguignon 12:27
okay, we'll make some some marketing at the end. We can plug everything that they eat and where it's going to be and everything.

NCrafts 12:34

Tim Bourguignon 12:36
um, one thing that would interest me, Peter, you just said You just said you were Are you new re and you heard from a dotnet conference? And Max, you said you were the at this meetup. Which, which, if I remember, well was a dotnet meetup as well. How did you make the move from this dotnet centered idea to the craftsmanship idea? Was it something that stuck from the very beginning? Or is it something that came quite naturally? How did that go?

NCrafts 13:07
Well, I can start on this Max, just to, I think that it was already sort of lingering in the outnet meetup, which I also attended. And it was mainly mainly all these old dotnet guys who were passing around the best practices and what they'd learned and what they were doing on their, on their, at their clients or on their projects. So there was always this atmosphere that we were looking for the best way to work, regardless of the technology out net is open sourced dotnet. And basically, the the philosophy is getting the best tool out there to do the job. So I think the software craftsmanship was just putting a word on what was already in the community. So it made sense to go towards that when the conference started. And the jump to the next year, I mean, to the following year, where we were open to all types of languages and technologies

NCrafts 14:13
made sense when this sort of

NCrafts 14:17
made sense for us?

Tim Bourguignon 14:21
And is it something that bothered you having to put a name on it? I mean, to put this this craftsmanship word on what you were doing quite naturally before?

NCrafts 14:34
And actually, no, I find it in a certain way, it's easier to have a name to put on it. Because it's sort of now it means something to people. So you can talk about craftsmanship and it starts to mean something to people. The bad side of that is that in a few years, it's not going to mean anything at all anymore. But but that's the marketing issue about about that, but for the moment, I'm pretty pretty happy with the software craftsmanship. The image is pretty pleasant. And I can live

Tim Bourguignon 15:06
with it. Do you think people are going to screw up the name as as nicely as it did for a job?

NCrafts 15:12
And it's actually coming right away?

NCrafts 15:20

NCrafts 15:23

Tim Bourguignon 15:24
unfortunately, you're right. I'm feeling the same things. Oh, too bad, too bad. Um,

NCrafts 15:34

Tim Bourguignon 15:36
howdy. Let's, let's, let's put the conference bit aside and continue. Continue speaking about this discrepancy? And how do you go on and sharpen your souls and increase your skills in the craftsmanship area? conferences is one tool, but what other tools do you have?

NCrafts 16:01
Well, meetups, of course, and user groups, where we can meet other people and share their experiences and share the way they are doing stuff. And I think communication is the best tool in the place to sharp the skills or to find new ways to do things we used to do in a certain way, so we always searching for new ways or efficiency, I mean, everywhere. So I think communicate communicating with people is for me, the best tool to sharpen my skills and practice and and well, of course, try try stuff myself and getting to new new things. I may discover, talking with people.

Tim Bourguignon 17:00
And how would you go about and try to, to expand the the audience interested in in craftsmanship? I mean, people that are out are attending the conference, most probably already know what it is, how do we get other people in there,

NCrafts 17:21
you have an idea, we maybe

NCrafts 17:24
it's a, it's a very complicated topic, in fact. And that's exactly what we are, we've been discussing for a long time on what we try to do quite everyday. And it's, for me, it's a very important topic, because, you know, most people are doing this job, and we are doing an amazing job, we have a really, really big chance to be able to do this job. Because it's it's very nippur very important artifacts of the future, being able to talk to machines and develop, and we have this great opportunity to change things on that's, that's why he can be a really amazing job. And in fact, if you see the reality, you'll see that maybe half of the people don't be happy at the job as as a programmer, and on really, that's something that that's what bothers me a lot. On really what I'm trying to do is to is to bring some light to people because I I experienced that a long time ago. You know, when you when you see when you see the light, when you see that, oh, but I think can be different. Oh, there is that way I didn't know that it's it was possible to do. And, and things like that. And when you see on when you you are at this exact moment, when you discover a new thing, discover new opportunities, new ways to do things that really change the way you work. It really empowers you on on its health, it helps you to be to be more happy. And really that's, that's as a target. Being able to that's the first point. It's it's just it's not only trying to talk to people to be clear software craftsmanship, softer craftsmen, because we know it's it's a great idea and practices and so on. No, it's just to empower them with new practices and tools and new mindset. It's mainly a problem of culture. And you know that the culture problem is not something that we can change in one day. So, I think that we need to talk a lot, speak at conferences go to go inside the companies, we do sometimes, broadband lunch, which are some kind of, of internal company meetups. And things like that, try to, to write in, in magazines, try to write things on the net and communicate on Twitter on, on, on, trying to talk about that as much as possible. Just to, to, to get into to give some interest to the subject to people, and then after that they can discover a world world. But in fact, the most difficult thing is create some interest in in people just to awake them and make them to, to dig a little more on the subject, and be able to, to be empowered by by all the nice stuff we have. Mm

Tim Bourguignon 21:21
hmm. I can totally agree. That's exactly what I'm trying to do with this with this project. And one thing you left out to your teacher, right.

NCrafts 21:31
I sometimes get when not, it's, you can consider that as a side project. In fact, I know but there really it's not. It's not something I do for for a living. It's really just a few hours a year on the because I try to not give too much talks because it's very hard to mix to mix teaching on the on real work. But yeah, I used to teach tennis two times because I think it's also an important thing because it's another audience is not the same people you you're not you are not targeting the same people as you you can have in meetups or conference.

Tim Bourguignon 22:24
Yeah, and I think it's so it's an audience it's really hard to get that they're not really reading the magazines, they're not following the same the same feeds etc.

NCrafts 22:37
Yeah, I'm, I'm very happy because now I started with teaching dotnet and on the web, and C sharp and things like that. And now I my my last course is, is called clean, clean code. And in fact, it's, it's more about teaching them the values of craftsmanship, and why we should take care about our code, why quality is important, and why we should continuously learn and things like that. And we also try to, to do some better code together. But really, my, my, my main point, I spent, I think I spend outfalls, the time of my, or my teaching, just talking to them, and exchanging ideas with them, and explaining that all they see in drawings a year in a weave. with other teachers, they have to take care of that, that but also to, to think about it and not just take it as Okay, it's like that on the didn't eat we eat will never change just to push them to, to some barriers that they don't use to have just to Okay, you know what you learn before it's just a crap, you should try another thing and things like that just to you know, to create some something strange that they don't used to have. That's the way they start thinking and that's what I'm trying to do with them.

Tim Bourguignon 24:31
Very nice goal during this on this we're doing um, maybe we can make a curve until the end back to the to the conference. Maybe there will be a question for you, Max. Um, what did you personally get out of this, this, creating the conference and making live and grow there's something you would like to say about that.

NCrafts 24:58
I well, And I didn't have any kind of objective, personal objective. But what is it being participating in and crafts actually was just to help people I?

NCrafts 25:15
I would love to help Andre and I think the

NCrafts 25:20
the interest of debt objective was

NCrafts 25:24
really resonating with me and was more than happy to participate, helping the conference. So what the what I think I got, and maybe it's meeting new people and international speakers and new way of thinking and stuff like that, but nothing really personal alarm, or carrier carrier oriented thing. I don't know, if it's what you had in mind.

Tim Bourguignon 26:01
It didn't have anything, anything particular in mind. I had my aha moment. Not so long ago, I was, for the first time part of a committee for a conference. Before that I was always in the organization, but never really in the committee. And I really, it was really interesting to see all those talks and all those ideas that come in, that will definitely not make the cut. But still this whole life that's going on in the industry. So mostly, when you when you have a conference, or you said 50 speakers, you had the correct, yep. So you have 50 talks, but I don't know how many, you got in the in the call for observations that maybe twice that's all three times that's, or maybe even more, I don't know. And, and you see, you see a completely different face of the of the industry. So that was my aha moment. I don't know. If you have something like this, you bet you may not have said, I'm Peter, something for you.

NCrafts 27:03
Yeah, well,

NCrafts 27:05
I'm not.

NCrafts 27:07
I think I'm along the same line. As Max, I wasn't expecting much out of the conference, except finding a way to invest in the community, which I hadn't done before. So it was my sort of way of giving back to all the meetups and all the people that had helped me through their talks. So I didn't feel like like I was going to be able to give talks at this type of conference, so I'd be better off organizing them. So that was my part of that giving back to the community. And there's definitely been some interesting perks for, for me, meeting people that I never thought I'd meet, putting them on the way, you're sort of central to the organization. So you get to meet lots of people, that's really interesting. The only problem is that during the conference, everything goes by so fast. But that's another issue. And we always have lots of we have a year then afterwards to catch up. So So yeah, that was it's it's really a, as Max said, meeting people, maybe gives you access to people you wouldn't have access to normally because it sort of creates a link. Say, Hey, I saw your interest. Yeah, let's talk about stuff. So it's, it's easier to approach people on that basis. We haven't any negative perks for the moment. So maybe that will happen someday. People that will put you just to be on the on the talk list. But I'm thinking that the community is pretty positive, it's not a, like the feeling like I have in the conference is very positive. Everybody's there to, to learn to communicate. And it's sort of it's, it's a great experience for that. And just being around that sort of atmosphere and being able to create that is brought me a lot. It's sort of a project a side project that has become really important to me, and to see it pull through every year and get bigger and better. Is, is fulfilling in itself.

NCrafts 29:09
It is.

Tim Bourguignon 29:11
That's something very interesting, as you said, this whole networking and speaking to people, the more the more I go to conferences, the more I like despite I must admit, I had some some fears and some some some trouble breaking the ice with people before. But now I kind of got the kick of it. And conferences have become more and more this this networking and this, this meeting new persons, as you say and getting to know different point of views never seen more than the toxin selves.

NCrafts 29:48
But I guess there is positive networking like we all have this. I don't know if we do you did but I definitely had this very negative view of networking. Networking was this thing where all these people in In business suits got together to exchange cards and make business afterwards. But it's there's other stuff. There's also just exchanging ideas with people, like you're talking about, you know, something about dotnet or whatever, this big project and microservices, and you've had that experience. And I'm interested in that, because I have a party that's going to be on that line. So maybe we can exchange on that. So it's, it's, it's natural networking, I'd say. So it's nothing disgusting, it's clean. And it can save your project. So you should do it.

Tim Bourguignon 30:35
You should definitely, I guess there's no no better way to say go to conferences. Just go for go there for the networking. It's, it's not dirty, it's nice.

NCrafts 30:47
I learned something that was really, that I really liked about the introduction to to interest that re said in the intro, was that at the conference, you might as well spend your time speaking to other people, because all the talks are on video. So spend your time speaking to people exchange and learn.

Tim Bourguignon 31:08
That's, that's for sure. I would like to leave it there. And the video are going to be available online, right?

NCrafts 31:17
Yeah, it's, we they are ready. Actually. We are just finishing, uploading, I'm tagging as videos and so on, but videos are ready.

Tim Bourguignon 31:31
Okay, is it limited to the participants of the conference?

NCrafts 31:34
No, because it doesn't make sense. We've our values. So our values is that sharing with people, so videos will be available for everyone online on the better than that. We, they, we you you you will be able to download them too. Because sometimes, you know you you you can see the videos online but you can you you cannot download them. And I know that most people used to download videos on watch videos during their transport to work and things like that. So we shared the videos as downloadable files, so it will be free for everyone.

NCrafts 32:23
But don't watch videos while you drive. Yes.

Tim Bourguignon 32:30
Thank you for the reminder. Um, you're welcome. Okay, so I guess we jumped already on the on the marketing part of it. And when it's gonna be when is the next end craps happening?

NCrafts 32:42
I don't know. Wait till us

NCrafts 32:48
18. nine teams of may 2017.

Tim Bourguignon 32:56
Okay. And it during the closing keynotes, you very briefly showed if I remember, well, three phases. Is it some information that you can make public already?

NCrafts 33:09
Sure. Yes, yes. We In fact, one thing that we we experience this year, really that was that we we published agenda very late. And we we published a first set of speakers invited in, I think, two months before the conference. And then because the CFP ended very late, we were just about to publish as a final. For most people, there is just a few people that no speakers trust us on the on that boat tickets without knowing the final agenda. But for most people, they still need to have detailed content. So that's why this year we started Evan before is the conference of this year to to to look for new speakers for next year. So we already talked to a few ones that confirmed so it may be public.

NCrafts 34:32
Soon, I think

Tim Bourguignon 34:33
okay. It will be on the on the website, probably.

NCrafts 34:39
I think as as soon as we can. In fact there is a problem each year is that just after the conference, we we have we are tired obviously because we spent a lot of energy during the conference. The problem is that it's not our main job. It's just Just a side project. So after the conference, you have to return to work with not that much energy, and so far, a few months, we completely forget about the conference. And then we start thinking about the conference in September, and really start working on it's on, let's say, November. And this year, we decided to, to continue say for during all the year, on the benefit, we expect that we will be very more smooth, easier to do the things and that we will be able to bleach everything, at least three months before as a conference.

Tim Bourguignon 35:51
Well, I sure hope you're also for you guys. And that would be way less work in Russia at the end. Um, okay. Anything you you would like to plug, something you were doing right now. And you could, you could kind of broadcast here.

NCrafts 36:09
No, nothing, nothing special, I just want to invite as much as possible people to go to conferences to Hatton meetups, because, before going to conference, you you need to have a taste of that. And because lots of people go to business conferences, the people, I think quite hold developers know about some kind of business conference where you can do some networking and so on. But I don't think most people know very some places where people really exchange ideas, without any business considerations. And I think meetups is a great place to start. And you have in quite every city, you have a local meetup about something. If you don't have a local meetup, just create one. It can be it can start very easily I, I talked about a lot of people that that live in the suburbs, or in the center of the country, in very small towns, on various no big groups, but you can still start to meet up with two people, it's just just start to meet up as a, let's say, a coding dojo. And you just organize it in, in the bar, on the if you if you have anyone that come you can pair cutting something, that's the way it starts. So you can have you still have solutions to to exchange ideas and meet people because it's really the way it starts. And don't hesitate to talk to people. Because most of the time, when you talk to someone that you don't know, and you don't think you can have an interest, and then you start talking about anything. And then after sometimes you may see some connection that can be interesting for you day to day job. So go go outside, talk to people, meet people and try to improve things. And I'm sharing new ideas. That's what I have to say.

Tim Bourguignon 38:28
Amen to that. How about you, Max, and his speaking engagements or articles you're writing or something like that?

NCrafts 38:36
Well, just to confirm what we said just before I moved to New CB months ago, and I already created the new software craftsmanship, meetup here. Yeah. And we, we already have like more than 100 people registered, not participant but registered that that's a good thing. And we will organize the third one in June. And it's going pretty pretty well. Some companies are interested in hosting the meetup. People are coming. We have like 20 people coming now. And that's good. And I think we can create any kind of meetups everywhere. That's the lesson.

Tim Bourguignon 39:32
Well, congratulation is very good. Very good. Thank you. Peter. How would you?

NCrafts 39:38
Well, for me, there's none other than a little girl who was planned for next month, not much. That's a project in its own. Congratulation. Thank you very much. Other than that, at the moment, I'm doing some some coaching for a team and that's proven to be very challenging. So I'll look forward to bettering my skills at coaching this year. So it's more project oriented and not to talk for conferences or meetups at the moment. So but it's a bit of both, I guess.

NCrafts 40:13
Hopefully I'll have something to talk about after that.

Tim Bourguignon 40:16
Okay. Okay. And then I jump on the opportunity, since you're speaking about about small towns and everything. Um, have you guys experienced them online conferences already?

NCrafts 40:29
I assisted that there was the plural site conference there. What was it called already?

NCrafts 40:36
I can submit.

NCrafts 40:38
That's it. Well, it was x Submit.

NCrafts 40:42
Indeed. And that was that was interesting, very good speakers. But it was a bit bit difficult to network on that one, though.

Tim Bourguignon 40:52
That's true. That's true. least you can get the content there. Yeah. I haven't

NCrafts 41:00
yet heard you miss the most interesting part of the conferences? Which, what we used to do, I have a friend that, that used to talk about corridor conferences, which are the most interesting conferences, and the corridor conferences is one you you create during a conference, talking to people in the corridors on outside talks on the on. And if you miss that, you miss the most interesting part. In fact,

Tim Bourguignon 41:36
if any of you attended the Socrates conference already,

NCrafts 41:43
not yet. I'm supposed to go to the next one in France that's taking place in October, or November, I can remember. Well, the end of the year. So I'm looking forward to that one, it's going to be very interesting. I had very good feedback on the previous one. And the ones that have been taking place in England and Germany and everywhere in the world now seem to be very, very good.

NCrafts 42:08
Oh, you're gonna love it.

NCrafts 42:11
This open,

NCrafts 42:12
I've, I've never been to Socratic, because it's usually at some time of the year that I cannot attend.

NCrafts 42:23
But I used to go to,

NCrafts 42:27
to other kind of conference like that. We have a jail up in France, which is, which is a very amazing conference, unconference? Sorry, that's held every year near has gone. And it's you, we also have something like that called a dial up in south in France, which I attend for many years. And I really, really like on conferences, and I wish I can have the personality and time to attend some Socrates one day, I hope.

Tim Bourguignon 43:11
Well, fingers crossed, I would say.

NCrafts 43:15
As we're speaking about conferences and events, I have a little question for you, Tim. What events would you recommend to attend in Germany at the moment for international people?

Tim Bourguignon 43:28
Well, that's a good question.

NCrafts 43:32
So Curtis,

Tim Bourguignon 43:35
yes. I'm trying to think back how the, the German speaking part of the soccer just was, um, there's most of the company or the companies that conferences have been in Germany, were really heavily German speaking. Which, I'm just guessing wouldn't be a complete match for you.

NCrafts 44:02
I have issues I can try, but it wouldn't be easy.

Tim Bourguignon 44:06
No, I guess I guess you would have to go to the really big ones. To start really speaking English. I had the opportunity to talk to the at the top conf beginning of the year, it was in Austria. And it was as well in completely in English was was really good. And I think they are going to make an another addition in Germany as well in 2017. If it's, if it's as good, as good as the as the 2016 edition, it's going to be good. Except the food, which was awful. That's another point. The talks are really good. But I couldn't answer that. Um,

NCrafts 44:53
I have to think,

NCrafts 44:54
okay, you'll send me a mail then.

Tim Bourguignon 44:56
We can I can handle that. Yes. No. When I'm invited the middle of June to, from by Microsoft to speak for the conference, the organizing, but I guess it's going to be in German again. So it's, I'm not sure it's kind of, there's no conference that comes to mind right now that I would ever wear would be certainly it's going to be in English and you should have done that.

NCrafts 45:21
Okay. Seems like the same issues we have in France. And

Tim Bourguignon 45:24
yes, I was thinking about this while you were talking the beginning and say, well, we are bashing your French, because you don't want to speak English. But well, that's actually how to learn German. I started doing working here in English, and everything was fine. My colleagues could speak very well, English. But I realized, at lunch, for instance, as soon as two German colleagues were there, they would instantly switch to German. And it was so depressing. I learned German though. Right away.

NCrafts 45:58
I just had to.

Tim Bourguignon 46:00
Well, um, anything we missed, and we should still plug for the end?

NCrafts 46:09
I don't think so. Okay.

Tim Bourguignon 46:12
Well, then. Thank you very much. It was a really a pleasure chatting with you guys. Congratulations again for the conference. It was really good. Thank you. And thank you very much. If If we don't see each other at the conference next year, then we should definitely make a next recording after the conference to be sure to get your update on all this. Those are really fun to see you get to see when you after or how that goes. With pleasure. Yeah. Then we'll do that. Thank you very much for your time. It's less than a little bit longer than expected, but I think was really great.

NCrafts 46:47
Okay, cool. Thank you. Thank you.