Sandra Parsick 0:00
For me, it was like "what I, but I do nothing. I'm not working in a in a specification group. I have no fancy open source project." And the reason why I'm Java champion is because I give many things back to the community I share my my knowledge, I try to push other people to grow up and yeah this is the reason why.

Tim Bourguignon 0:39
Hello, and welcome to developer's journey to podcast bringing you the making up stories of successful software developers to help you on your upcoming journey. My name is Tim Bourguignon. And on this episode 155, I receive Sandra Parsick. Sandra is a freelance software developer and a consultant in the Java space. She's a Java champion, and in the Oracle groundbreaker ambassador program. She's very active in the German community via the Softwerkskammer Ruhrgebiet and Cyberland groups, and she has shared her knowledge at countless conferences over the years. And that's where I know her. Sandra, welcome to DevJourney.

Sandra Parsick 1:17
Yeah. Hi. Hi, Tim. Thank you for the invitation. And yeah,

Tim Bourguignon 1:21
it's my pleasure. It's just a bit hard to mix German and English in the same sentence. But yeah. As you know, the show exists to help listeners understand what your story look like, and imagine how to shape their own future. So as always, let's go back to your beginnings. How are we? Where would you place the start of your developer's journey?

Sandra Parsick 1:42
I think it was in my childhood, my cousin was the person that put me to the IT stuff. He was He's four years older than me. And it was like my big brother, I don't have and when we visit him, families, When we drive to my own, then he was already playing computers, and we don't have a computer. So yeah, that wasn't, and I always look over his shoulder and watch what he's doing. And when I was 12, I begged my parents to buy me a computer. And they said, Okay, it's just a very big vision of you, then you have to put something for it. And then I started to save papers, newspapers, to money, what is the first computer so it was a very vexing for me as a child. And I predict the future. And then yeah, and then my career or family IT support started. Yeah, so this was my bit, my first step to it. And then at school, we have a computer science class that I joined. And yeah, that was my first step of programming. And 60 I think that was very clear, I will do my might be tool, and I have to luck to do it in methods, mathematics and computer science. And then I started very classic, my computer science study. And I was really fast. In Germany, the middle of the 2000s, we have switch in Navaho, we have the degrees around your new university, and I have the left to do the old one. And then we switch in Germany to bachelor and master and so I do the diploma. And then I was I was 35 years old. And then I have to go to the to a startup and then my career started as a quality assurance engineer, and then I switch after one year to a software developer.

Tim Bourguignon 3:44
Okay, let's unpack a couple of things there. So you started being fixed with playing blood and you didn't just play in your in your computer that you paid partly yourself by saying newspapers do you

Sandra Parsick 3:55
remember maybe when you put my my agenda from my CV? You were read my CV and say it it's a man Yes, because typically I have a difficult CV for men when he got to the computer science so I have a classical carrier of the software developer to start with playing computers then that I was break my computers very often because I wanted to try new things so I don't know how many times I reinstalled windows

Tim Bourguignon 4:32
that sounds so familiar.

Sandra Parsick 4:34
Yeah, and then I started with programming at the school time and then do you make some some tasks and playing around with Hotmail because web was was a big thing. When I go to school, and then I had to relax to start with programming with Java and at the school. So I put like, you're coming from tall Pascal you notice this turtle games don't have to know to programming the Turn so such kinds of thing we are doing in school with Java so this was my wow but I don't don't start at a startup or it startup as a child how many people guys was very classic one

Tim Bourguignon 5:17
okay classic with big aquatt You always knew you were you were gonna go the the computer science way

Sandra Parsick 5:27
yes it was very clear I know I have this discussion for someone say to me as sunrise it's very risky to pull everything that's good in the direction of mathematics and computer science. I should do more like one more with proof language and so on but I say Do you see my my notes so my title was on mathematics and computer science so put everything on one card and the interest was my mind so

Tim Bourguignon 6:02
very cool. We could you expand a little bit on the diploma versus bachelor masters you said you were lucky to still be in the old system I want to be polemical

Sandra Parsick 6:14
Yeah, for me maybe it's depends on your whole your character and for me was this school screw process someone is telling you someone the front and explaining it was for me I want to go faster than I was hired on for my own very good and it was like very boring to to sit in the lesson the classes in listening to the to the to the teacher I had experience when I see the first bachelor and master classes there was more like at the school in the old system it was like okay, you have of course the specimen with the professor and the front and but after that you have to relearn by your own and colleagues, study colleagues and try to explain but then you go go go in your own pace. And do you have many free time so my my study daily workflow was like, Okay, three months, very straightforward, forwards learning and focus on learning and then go to the, to the exam. And after that I have three months free time free to go for travels or for just little bit earning money, go party, and so on. And when I thought that when I missed some people didn't go to the new new process of study there had to have no time for parties no time for earning money, no time for traveling. And so this is why I say hey, I have so much left that I could do my my my study known no system, okay. And after that, I when I was searching for a job, because spatula Marcin Germany was very new, the high our say, Okay, we know a diploma and we know what we happen for that when we take a students with a diploma. So I think that was the beginning of my job carrier was was easier to join to cover.

Tim Bourguignon 8:21
Okay, so let's let's talk about your the beginning of your carrier, then you say you started as a as a as a QA engineer? Yes. Was it your choice? Was it something you were interested in? How did that happen?

Sandra Parsick 8:32
Um, yeah, this was my last student job. I do lots of testing, and was lots of fun and sighs and so on a startup that they searching, Junior quality assurance, and I say, Okay, why not? Set my my CV down, and then what's happened, but if I did, as a student, you are only one one day in a week in the company. But in the first year of my job, I see okay, during this whole week, it's very boring. And it was like, Oh, I find a bank. And I tried. I want to fix by my own Yeah, and a lot. Okay, make an issue ticket down. Give the developer and web users rarely. Yep. And, and then stupid discussion with developers? Why is the backbone on the back? End? And I'd say okay, it's a very important job, but I want or I want more, I want more. And I say to my boss, I'd like to switch to the sort of development department and first of all to say no, because we need your attention. Okay. Then I have to change the position. And then you say okay, then let's, let's

Tim Bourguignon 9:53
This is so painful.

Sandra Parsick 9:54
Yeah, it's always a favor and, but for me, it was a lesson. You have to be straight for What? And if you want something, you have to take it? Yeah, so and then I, my developer careers started. But maybe I have to say that this one year is quality assurance. They, when I look at the past now, it was very important because I have a view on the things I learned to do you have the software, and after that, it helps me a lot as a software developer code, because I know how a quality assurance think, and I know, which which syncs work, quality assurance is loving on it. So I think that this one year helps me a lot for my, my developer career,

Tim Bourguignon 10:43
I believe you so much. The testing mindset is so important for developers. And when you have developers will really can think, like, how can I break this thing? That's so valuable? I really cool. Did you have an example where where it helped you? In your in your life since then,

Sandra Parsick 10:59
when I get a task to develop? Yeah, I tried to sing over the SAS and what what could could we have behind behind the stacks, and I tried to involve the sink in programming. And, and I know from feedback from from quality endurance engineers, they know, when we have something to retest of Sandra's stuff, the happy case, everything will be fine. We have to do more exploration testing to find a back, Sandra. Cool. So I think there's a big feedback you get.

Tim Bourguignon 11:36
And your reputation precedes you that's

Sandra Parsick 11:40
yeah, and and you want to see all my talks when you go my homepage? And so which kind of talks I'm I'm talking about the topics are ever seen with testing? Yeah. When you're I try to put this to push this testing topic more in the development, because then the quality assurance can focus on very important stuff, not as separate cases. And

Tim Bourguignon 12:02
when you say focus on testing, you mean, you mean, the developers should be doing the testing? Meaning, the bottom part of the pyramid? What do you mean exactly with that?

Sandra Parsick 12:10
I mean, like, to test driven development, for example, then that's the first part of developing the production code that let's think about how can I test this kind of other type of code or piece of code, and my lessons learned does not pass when you're thinking about, okay, how can I test what I'm programming, then your production code is more clear, in most most structure of most have more structure and is maybe always maintainable. But it's more maintainable than when you put everything from your head.

Tim Bourguignon 12:49
You're increasing the likelihood that's, that's true. Um, that's that's one of the things I love about TDD. There's, there's things to love about TDD. And some things to not love. But yes, yes, of course, that's what I love about TD is really helps you structure how you, you program things to be able to test it down the line. And so it's really forming in terms of emergent architecture and stuff.

Sandra Parsick 13:11
And when it when a developer is telling me you don't need to test that I say you always test this course, when you're ready. You started to program and you click an application to look if everything is alright, yeah, so you're doing is in TDD is like, Okay, I put my expiration testing in code. So I care for that we repeatable on that side. What would

Tim Bourguignon 13:37
you say to people who are kind of allergic again, against TDD, saying, well, it produced amounts of tests, really big amounts of tests that just stand in your way afterwards? would you respond to that? Yeah. All right.

Sandra Parsick 13:52
That's vats. You have to refactor your test to so. So for example, I, today, the morning Yeah, I have to extend the feature and the production code, and I go go to the test. And I say, Oh, we have Apple testing on that side. Yeah, then you've got your started to delete test them. And sometimes when I read even with my TAs, and I go to my tests and say, okay, at the beginning, I need this test. But now I'm ready to go on. And I created an artist that tested the same context to so then I delete some tests, and then it's fine. So people in the road, it's alright, so to delete

Tim Bourguignon 14:34
things that that's absolutely true, which is, that's the thing that I realized all the time is people learn this TDD by saying, Okay, you have to write the tests before you write the code. And then you don't have to keep the tests. You refactor them, you change them. The tests that you need to write the code are not necessarily the test you need at the end to have a net for your code. And those two different behavior. usages are really to be considered differently one from the other. But that's that's something that's kind of missing in the discussion or in the discussion that I

Sandra Parsick 15:04
had many, many people say in which team you are you are a team TD or your team No, TD Yes.

Tim Bourguignon 15:12
And then that's fine, just so your team can add up. Regardless, if developers are doing TDD or not, they should be producing new unit tests just to be testing their code as a unit for what they are they're creating, how high? Do you want the developers to go in the pyramid? Should they be doing the integration tests? Should they be doing system testing and automated basis? Should they own the whole testing of their software? Where would you put the?

Sandra Parsick 15:45
That's, that's very difficult discussion? I think it depends. Okay, it depends. It depends on which mindset you have in the QA, I meet so many different ways in my career, that depends on really when they when they say, Okay, we are more focused on exploration testing, very, very good, very important, then I will say, Okay, then let's do the automation stuff more on the development, but then the QA have to say to the, to the developer, which testing cases we should implement, and then I meet Qs, then they have very high programming skills. Yeah. And they can do it by own. So then I My task is to make the unit tests, integration tests, but the end to end test and QA will do it. Yeah. And maybe I have fun. There are some tricky programming tasks. Yes. Why I do only support on that side. So I cannot give you an answer. This must be in. So it's very, very depends on how this goes. Or the mindset of the QA is, if they're more from agile part coming from agile stuff, or their old fashioned pas are so what does it sorry for the different?

Tim Bourguignon 17:05
And imagine you had a you had a developer on your team, a junior developer on your team, who's not completely not really, really confident about testing right now. They still do learn a bit at university, your independent Prentice ship how to do tests, but that's it, they don't like it. They don't really want to do it, just do it. Because the DoD says you have to do it. But what would be your reaction as a as a senior beside them? And to help them grow with this?

Sandra Parsick 18:14
This is a great question. Because when I look back, when I was a junior developer, I have so much left to get you're on my team, and he was clean code and TD and TSS. And when I joined his team, he was like, I don't know it's English to say, like so. In Java, se como

Tim Bourguignon 18:40
Remi big, roomy guy?

Sandra Parsick 18:46
And, and he said to me, okay, Sandra, you're a junior, I will put you on my flying wings take you under my wing. Thank you. And I have hoped that we can make a great developer from us. So he, he made lots of pairing with me. And he was explaining explanation by the screen code rules are so important and why we have to write tests on on that side. And then it gives me tasks and I write it and give him to review. And I say No, that's wrong. Okay, it's working, but it's wrong. Because going next, the next iteration, yes. So this was I don't know how many iteration I have to go to my code was was good enough for you? Yeah. So okay, for me, it was very good. I like this. Kind of, kind of, I would say mentoring Yes. Was was okay for me. But one advice, advice to the junior listen to your senior and ask him why we're here. Why you should do this thing. or not, I have no chance I have to do the DVD

Tim Bourguignon 20:06
and you have to listen especially if they're called you. Yeah.

Sandra Parsick 20:10
It was very funny because when I have some struggles yeah and he solved the problem then he always say yes and right now now you know why you are junior and I am a senior and all we Yeah, one week later you can have some paintings in his back. Yeah, and I say now you know why I'm a junior and you're saying maybe for the for the listeners. So like very huge, but it was for me it was very I like I like it.

Tim Bourguignon 20:44
Let's put it this way. It's sounds like a good trust relationship. You can tease each other and have fun and still be working very fine. Okay, cool. Very cool. So that was that was your the beginning of your of your career when you transition from QA to development? Yes. What What led you to becoming the Java champion? We know you don't know either.

Sandra Parsick 21:15
I think so. I do is the only thing that was fun. And it was like to communicate with people and to show the people hey, I had a problem I solve in this way maybe it's a tax you have to solve your problems then you shall say that's so great what you're doing you have to be a Java was like what I but I do nothing. I'm not working in a specification group. I have no fancy open source project and the reason why I'm Jared champion is because I guess many things back to the community I share my my knowledge I tried to push other people to grow up and yet this is the reason

Tim Bourguignon 22:02
yeah, and well well well deserved. And we'll say I'll say when did this community involvement start?

Sandra Parsick 22:14
It was on my second job because of private reasons I have to quit job on the first company because my my boyfriend did not find after his study dropped in the area where I was because I was one year earlier already awesome. And yeah, and then you find a job and then I say because I say okay such a job I'm it I'm working it I will find a job everywhere. So then he finds a job and I'm after a half year after that I move to the same city where he is live was living and this was the reason why I quit the job there and move forward Yeah, and this was a completely different company that was not a startup or small older old fashioned company and and I miss on my daily work this discussion of bought technologies and with the colleagues to fire to try out new new things and and when you're trying to put something new they say unknown and was very frustrated Then I saw an internet that suffer scammer group was was created in Dortmund and I enjoyed them and it was my my my group to discuss new technology and what I miss out on my job and my husband always say that was my first aid group Yeah, and yeah, so my community Korean started on both sides it was more like okay I don't have I don't have this this this this discussion space on my my job. So I searched dot Manila Area five people a day after similar mind then yeah,

Tim Bourguignon 24:00
maybe for the non German speaking listeners. So software is a play on word between software and hunt Vex come up. And 100x comma is kind of the chamber of handicrafts or something like

Sandra Parsick 24:13
this. Yeah. Yes, yes. And yeah, you know, in Germany, everything has a has to be in inroads and process. So the crafting community has institution that handled or legal stuff and so on.

Tim Bourguignon 24:30
So I expect something like like a apprenticeship regulating apprenticeships and mastery, etc. And so I don't know who created the software scanner.

Sandra Parsick 24:42
I think this was the call. Was it Niccolo? I seen it on the last Monday, lady, lady.

Tim Bourguignon 24:52
Yeah, that's true. And so they created this as a as a response to that and really promoting craftsmanship in this to our world and then so Kratos

Sandra Parsick 25:03
I think this office comma, the original group, I think the first I was not that so. So maybe I'm wrong and it's a day create a come, Nicole Andrea's create Sokka tasks, first conference and unconference in Germany about Software Craftsmanship or software crafting stuff. And at the end of the conference, they say, but it's so cool. We need an origin tool. And they're so the participants of this conference, go back to the hometown and started to create an original group of the same, same mind and it's good. So this is the surface camera documents was created by Christopher Sorry.

Tim Bourguignon 25:51
Okay, no, very cool. Yeah, there's a few groups like this in Germany, and it's very enjoyable.

Sandra Parsick 25:56
Yeah. In your areas. Number. They are very active groups, too. So yeah,

Tim Bourguignon 26:02
indeed. In the end, we have a couple others and then yeah, that's been a fun group to be part of. Okay, so this was your your, your way of finding your organs with bigger air quotes outside of your job because you didn't have a urine anymore? You obviously found what you were looking for. Why did you start sharing there?

Sandra Parsick 26:24
And because um, I don't when that's very cool. When when you have problems and another person give you a hint how to solve the problem. Yeah. And when you end when another come to you and say I have this problem and didn't you give a hint here and tell us where we left? This was like your urine? That's when you're sharing knowledge. Yeah, you go faster. In on your way. Yeah. And the second learning was for me when I have to explain something to another person, then then I know I understand that. Yes, it was like a double check. Yeah, like a test.

Tim Bourguignon 27:03
Really? Yeah, I know. But it comes out it sounds counterproductive. Sometimes put yourself on the spot and trying to explain somebody just to realize where your cracks are and where you didn't understand something. But yeah, it works.

Sandra Parsick 27:20
Yeah, but that's I have one experience with my my husband. He had some programming lessons and the study to his mechanic engineer, but but he have to do more hardware programming, then you have to learn C and C was for me, like as a Java developer. I don't know the point I and how to explain them. And then I was I was a walk one week Ill because I have some pain in my back and so I have to be in bed and no moving and then he said okay, now, this is the time you cannot go away. Explain me how this point. But after that, it was like okay try to explain and then I said, ah such kind of way they are rocking. Okay, great that I have to explain

Tim Bourguignon 28:11
the the rite of passage to being a becoming a Sanyo developer, to explain pointers and having back pain. Very, very interesting. And at some point, you started showing up on stages, writing articles and blog posts. And in every Java magazine, there is what motivated you to going from from a local user group when you can share your stories and get some help to more than that,

Sandra Parsick 28:40
I would tell you to true because that was very pragmatic.

Tim Bourguignon 28:46
That sounds like a nice story for you to hear. I'm ready.

Sandra Parsick 28:49
Okay. After I put my second job, and suddenly freelancing, I was thinking about, Okay, I have some do something for my knowledge. And by my own because I don't have a boss where I can go and bet for conference ticket did I started to realize that this conference tickets are very expensive. And as a new freelancer, you have to look at the money. Yes. Okay, we need a process. How can I decrease this cost of learning new stuff? Yes. And then I see Oh, as a speaker, I will get a free ticket for a conference. Okay. Yeah, then I, then I was think about, okay, what which topic? Can I make a talk and I know from my user groups, or from the surface command, from the local group, that I, I had to talk a little to talk about flyway database, great migration, I say, why not for conferences, so I bought a strike, put it in here for my luck. They say yes, you can. And the funny thing is my first conference was HEPES cup was the number was it? Yeah, Okay.

Tim Bourguignon 30:04
Somehow I've been been involved with it.

Sandra Parsick 30:09
Yes. Yeah. Okay. It was very nervous because it's so different when you talk to people, you know? And for audiences, you don't know. Yeah. And after that, I just do it. Yes. It was like, and, and I didn't ask for help or something, I just do it. And it was a good one because I make it with my first talk with live coding. And, and after that, when I do it, five, six times. They say, Senator, you're so crazy while you're doing in your first. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, so my lessons learned? Well, yeah, it was, it was good. Everything works. But of course of my non experiments. On my second time, when I give this talk, I've put in this any internet, I have no internet connection. So I learned the hard way. So why isn't it a good idea? To do live coding and so on?

Tim Bourguignon 31:07
Live coding is fine. You just need to prepare for everything that could happen.

Sandra Parsick 31:10
Yeah, yes. And I wasn't prepared.

Tim Bourguignon 31:15
yet. I'm tricks now to

Sandra Parsick 31:17
Yes, I make video recording of every of every live coding, I show a video is better for the audience. Because you show the video, you can explain it. And you don't have wait, because you can make some stupid to simulate it faster. Yes. So this is what's my triggers on site. But I learned

Tim Bourguignon 31:40
Yeah, we all have our tricks. I've done also the, the Git repo, where I know I can pull any commit at any time, just okay. I searched for 30 seconds. And if I see something is not working, let's just pull pull the pull the report as it is, and start over and refresh, etc. You have to find all your your tricks. Yeah, it's a very stressful situation.

Sandra Parsick 32:04
Yeah. And then it was like, okay, and then I recognized that, okay, it's fun. It's easier to find people to chat because now people come coming to you and wants to chat with you about the topic. Yeah. It was supposed to, like, open mind for me. And yeah, and then I Yeah, and continue, because lots of fun.

Tim Bourguignon 32:26
You didn't just continue you step on the other side. And you've been organizing conferences now. Oh, cool. Organizing

Sandra Parsick 32:31
your COVID ever say a call organizing? Yes. Yes. Yes. It was like saffron is because

Tim Bourguignon 32:40
Wait a minute, just just some some some background information. You held something like a constant talk for eight hours at Javelin this year. And that was only moderation. Yes. There was only money. I'm making big air quotes. Duration kind of improvising on the spot about development topics for eight hours long. Yeah. But you did a great job.

Sandra Parsick 33:04
Yeah, but it was not. It wasn't alone. Yeah, we was a group of people. So I was a part of a group that I wouldn't say that I was the stone that said it was a group work and a group

Tim Bourguignon 33:16
group effort in the group effort. Yes, indeed. It was indeed. But you've been in program committees and organizing conferences from the Yes,

Sandra Parsick 33:23
yes. Awesome. I guess my my first talks, they asked me how can you go write an article or just pocket you say? Yeah, why not? Let's try it. Yes. Hello to my German teacher. Now I'm writing. So yeah, and it was like, hey, it's cool. And it helps me to write an article. It's, it's another way to structure your mind on this topic. So for me, it was like, Okay, this is a good tool in my toolbox. Yeah, to structure topics and say, Okay, why not? Yeah.

Tim Bourguignon 33:56
What other tools do you have in your toolbox to structure topics, talks, articles,

Sandra Parsick 33:59
podcasting? Yeah, hackathons to make open source hackathons. That's another way to learn stuff. I think I like to have this difference. Yeah. Every week to draw something a little bit different than this. I think that this is a solid

Tim Bourguignon 34:19
Okay, the spice is on your on your way. It's a bit different every week just a bit. Looking at topics in different angles. Interesting,

Sandra Parsick 34:29
don't you go for Yeah, then someone asks you because you asked so many times on stage Hey, do you want to come to program committee and was for me like oh, a new thing? I don't know. It's let's do it. Yes.

Tim Bourguignon 34:40
Like you said the beginning you say yes to everything.

Sandra Parsick 34:47
Yeah, yes, it's it sounds so that I say yes to everything, but that there was some kinds of single what I tried out and I say now, I will not continue it. So I thing you should be optimized for new things. Try it out and then you find out okay, it's not nothing for me, then you stop it. So at least right just right, just right. But when you will recognize okay, it's nothing for me then say no and stop it. So yeah,

Tim Bourguignon 35:15
okay, what's next thing? You're gonna say? Yes to

Sandra Parsick 35:24
be open for surprise. I will say yeah.

Tim Bourguignon 35:27
Okay, do you have a roadmap for yourself? Thank you I want to do this and this and that in the future some some sometimes

Sandra Parsick 35:33
I know what what I'm not doesn't I don't want to do I think that's the most important whatever for me that I know what I don't want to do. Maybe I will focus on other things because three years ago, I started with sailing so and this is very good. Good hobby. Selling on boats. You mean sailing on board? Yes.

Tim Bourguignon 35:52
Okay, so it's not that it's not going to bake bread or take care of sheeps as the the the architect archetype of the software developer is going certainly what's wrong with us?

Sandra Parsick 36:05
Yesterday, someone asked me if we don't cannot create it conference on sailing boats. And I say yeah, this idea I had to some years ago but I say I'm very happy with that. I have cut sailing syncing what I don't mix with it because when I go on offshore I don't have a laptop of me smartphone was off and I'm four weeks offline so

Tim Bourguignon 36:33
it must be awesome

Sandra Parsick 36:37
it's very good. And the first week after that, after four weeks sailing is like very hard because when you're on the sailboat you have this waves Yeah, and when your boat go back on the on the land Yes. It's like I miss my Wait.

Tim Bourguignon 36:54
Why is a word not moving?

Sandra Parsick 36:59
And, and I missed to sleep outside. Yes. So then I have some problems to sleep in, in the classroom as well so many things. But after one week everything is

Tim Bourguignon 37:15
you miss your your IT work when you're when you're in a boat now. That's dangerous.

Sandra Parsick 37:22
I think because because you have so many things to do on a boat. It's like cooking, you're planning the trip to check the weather discuss with the crew what what we should do, what should we not do? And you have no time for for for it. And then our point is that my husband is not coming from the software. It branches complexities doing Cognitivists was different. So I have no one discussed about it. So yeah, we discuss about things here. So but but for me, it's it's a good break. And when I back home, and I see my laptop, you said yes.

Tim Bourguignon 38:00
So happy to come back to you. Okay, so you're you're not completely going off the grid. Soon.

Sandra Parsick 38:07
No, no, no, no. But, but, but I recognize that that when I coming back, I have fresh mind, new ideas. And it's like, how it's called in English on top of assign in my

Tim Bourguignon 38:22
subconscious. Your subconscious. Yeah,

Sandra Parsick 38:24
maybe maybe. I think it's subconscious. I work in the old time the whole time. But it's it's not so in the in the frontier. So So you might

Tim Bourguignon 38:33
your mind is still working on problems. Yeah. Even though you're not aware of it. Yeah. If ideas.

Sandra Parsick 38:38
Yeah. And then I often see after a long sailing trip, yeah, I come back to my laptop and have so much new ideas for a talk for article or

Tim Bourguignon 38:49
would it work for you to take your laptop with you just not not on not turning on the board and say somewhere and live there for a while and then some somewhere else?

Sandra Parsick 38:59
too stressful?

Tim Bourguignon 39:03
Okay, what's in your future?

Sandra Parsick 39:05
I don't know. Yeah, but maybe it's good that I didn't make so much long term plans, because then I was open for for new things. That was very unrespectable for me, like my freelancing. And so I think I will follow the rule, make don't make long term plans. And we'll see what's what's happened.

Tim Bourguignon 39:28
Continue not making a complaint. That's very good. What is the one thing that that's young Sundar, starting a career should have? Could have beneficiated from hearing

Sandra Parsick 39:42
that she's freelancing Yeah, because when I say I'm coming from a family that we have now interpreter, mindset in the family, yeah. So, but my first job I know had some freelancer and they say boss and you're the typical type of person for for freelancing, I say, I'm a freelancing never. But after two jobs, I was so frustrated with my job because it was like, they put me in a box here and, and I could have got outside this box here. And so I saw my parents say to me, Hey, Sandra, maybe you have to change, you're kind of working, or how you you're working. And then I have this this sentence of band, who was the person that sent his try out freelancing? And I say, okay, maybe I have to try it out. And yeah, then I started and it was the best choice that I've ever met.

Tim Bourguignon 40:54
Do you have one advice for aspiring freelancers, people thinking about it? And on the verge of starting,

Sandra Parsick 41:02
keep in mind, this is not one way street, when you find out that you can, that is not nothing for you, you can stop this journey and go back to normal normal worker, just, this helped me a lot, because I said, Okay, I will try it out. And if it's not working, I can go back. Yes. And and I have so many support from my parents, they say, tried out, Sandra, what can we go wrong? Yeah. Okay, you can lose some money, because it's not working. But you have a family that will help you you have a boyfriend or hospital now. They can help you. Yes. So what can go wrong? Yes. So initially, it doesn't happen in your mind. It's not not a one way street, you can go back. Yes. This is. I think that that is the best advice I can give in this in this this context.

Tim Bourguignon 41:53
Also, thank you very much. Where would be the best place to find you online and continue this discussion with you?

Sandra Parsick 41:59
On Twitter, some of our potluck? On my websites, you can find that out not channels, like email, saying like,

Tim Bourguignon 42:10
and I'll link to that in the show notes. Anything coming up on your plate? In the next week or month?

Sandra Parsick 42:17
Or two weeks or whatever? Yeah, I have some workshops and and some talks that I've gone to the summer break. And yeah, and in September handling me we're continue Sybrand date night. It's, uh, yeah, it's like, yeah, we're talking about it, but in a funny way.

Tim Bourguignon 42:40
We'll link that as well in the shownotes. And now and in September, you get to see this summer. It's been a blast. Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. Very cool. Very cool. And this has been another episode of divergent and we'll see each other next week. Okay, I have one thought now. community, community, community community are therefore, oh, with their sailing as well. But at first, I am so looking forward to meeting my local communities. When this COVID thing is finally over. I'd love to hear more about your thoughts message, send her a story. You can reach me on Twitter at @timothep, or email Or use the comments section on our website and The one thought that keeps on coming is about Sandra's description of how going sailing is helping her disconnect and be more creative. And sometimes I wonder if I am disconnecting enough. Something to ponder. As always, if you like what you hear on the devjourney show, be sure to share rate and review. Talk to you next week