Michael Chan: 0:00
I hope that it meets your expectations. And, you know, honors the last episode, because you know this is the one that gets downloaded. It's the first download for forever. Damn, I didn't think about that. Thank you. Hello everyone on this episode.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:05
I receive my call Hold up, let's roll it back.

Michael Chan: 1:08
I think it might be time to get some questions in there about you.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:14
It's supposed to be about the guest, not about me.

Michael Chan: 1:17
You've had like what 299 of them. I feel like you've maybe earned it, but I don't like it.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:24
I feel like, no, you're right, I don't like being in a hot seat, but uh, but I guess, I guess we have to, you know after 299 conversations, you've probably learned a thing or two.

Michael Chan: 1:35
That's. That's a lot of information to distill that's a rumor.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:40
I didn't learn anything, it was just fun.

Michael Chan: 1:46
Just fun, I know, I know, I know I'm very impressed. I made it to about like 123, I think was the magic number on my show, but I only led a little over 100 of those. So I'm like really impressed by your stamina to hit a full 300. That's pretty wild.

Tim Bourguignon: 2:05
Well, thank you. First of all, it's been a roller coaster, I must say. It's been so much fun. It's been meeting absolutely fantastic people. It's been learning stuff I never suspected existed. But it's been long nights. It's been worrying where the next guest is going to come from. It's been pulling out the midnight oil, trying to finish recording and then editing on Monday evening for a publication on Tuesday morning. Yeah, it's been a roller coaster.

Michael Chan: 2:42
It's kind of a ridiculous amount of work right. It's like all of the stuff that no one would possibly imagine, you know, as it just kind of pops into a feed yes, indeed, at the very beginning, I mean recently.

Tim Bourguignon: 2:57
For the past 18 months or two years, process has been quite well honed. It wasn't so much work anymore and by it wasn't so much work. I would say there's something like an hour and a half recording for an episode and there would be an hour and a half work before and an hour and a half work after. That. I love that.

Michael Chan: 3:14
I love that.

Tim Bourguignon: 3:14
Yeah, so you get to do a lot of the good part yeah, but at the beginning it was something like two, three hours before and 10 to 15 after, and that that was insane that was really insane um I mean, I'm I'm kind of anal on on the quality of what I produced, and so I really, really, really uh, went over every sentence and and shortened poses and really tried to make it absolutely perfect.

Tim Bourguignon: 3:45
And at some point I had to realize that the return on investment of that part was not as high as I had hoped, and so I I I throttled down a little bit the the effort, but still it was. Yeah, it's really interesting.

Michael Chan: 4:00
Now I I actually want to talk about the production part of this, but I think before that, I'd like to know, like, what got you even into the idea of podcasting? Because I think you said you started in 2016-ish, right, and I think it was way less. This was before everybody had a podcast. This was like still kind of a you know newish underground phenomenon. What was that light bulb moment for you where you're like it's podcast time um.

Tim Bourguignon: 4:27
So first of all, I've been a podcast junkie for for over 20 years have you been around? That long almost, yeah, I remember recording, uh, recording radio shows, taking them with with me with the first iPod and when the iPod Nano came out, the first version of the iPod Nano 2005, was it? I think that's where I started seeing the first digital shows coming up. I'm not sure if it was called podcast yet, but it kind of started with the iPod.

Michael Chan: 5:02
But it wasn't music, it was like a conversation it wasn't music, it was like a conversation.

Tim Bourguignon: 5:05
It wasn't music, it was people talking, exactly, exactly. And then came the idea of this RSS feed and the episodes showing up in your inbox. Back then in iTunes, you had to plug your iPod and synchronize the damn thing. It was a nightmare. Cables Between yeah, exactly between, exactly. And then for for the the next 10 years, I've had earplugs everywhere and I've been listening to something everywhere, and so really, podcasts were, were front and center in what I did. Um, I I commuted a lot with my bike and so I had, uh, between 45 minutes to an hour or something of biking every morning, and every evening was something, my years and it was really part of my life, and so obviously at some point I started asking myself, could I be on the other side, on the other side of that? But Dev Journey didn't start as a podcast. Yeah, I'm not sure I've told this story on the show yet. Actually, it's high time I was working for a company.

Tim Bourguignon: 6:10
Yeah, I've told the rest of the story quite often, but this piece I think haven't. I was in a company that was really close to editors, to book editors, and a German book editor came to me because he knew my boss and asked me if I could do some kind of career book for new software developers. And they wanted some clean code in there, they wanted some soft skills in there and everything. And we discussed quite a bit about what they wanted and in the end end we didn't align at all on what it should be. But that sparked something saying hey, uh, somebody wanted me to write something about that. What that is weird.

Tim Bourguignon: 6:58
And so I started scratching the surface and I was in a to this, this part, I am not sure I it. And so I really started scratching the surface saying, hey, is there some kind of book that I had in my mind at that time, which was not what the editor had in mind, that I could be writing? And right around that time I was working as a consultant for for German bank. They did some crazy bullshit. They did some crazy bullshit basically they had a project they had a project.

Tim Bourguignon: 7:29
I won't tell the full story, but they had a project that was already two years late, that had been budgeted for about two to three million. When we came in it was already five to six and they told us well, just finish it.

Michael Chan: 7:43
And I worked there for two years and it took three more to finish it, do you know what the total of that was With a budget of 26.?

Tim Bourguignon: 7:53
26. Yeah, there is a whole political story behind it, but we won't get into there story behind it and uh, but we won't get into there. But one of the things I did for that company was was some training, uh, xp training, coaching, and then at some point take a role of a coach, um, those grandmaster, coach, uh, kind of project lead dwelling into this. And one of the things we had to do was really hire a whole lot of people because the project was late, so obviously you add more people to it. It might ring a bell, if you've read the mythical mind yes, as a very bad thing to do.

Tim Bourguignon: 8:32
So we did it, obviously, and I was very puzzled by all the profiles that was attracting attention inside the bank. They were looking at profiles that didn't attract me, didn't sound interesting, profiles that were more of the same, more profiles which had led to this fiasco, and that, plus that book story, sparked something saying, hey, I don't agree with that. And that's where first an idea of a book started. I started sketching essays. I structured it as something like 20 to 40 essays that were building on top of each other, which you could just read one, and then let it go for a while and then come back, read one again and again, and again. I did as well. I did some testing and people were telling me well, it was fun, the first one was fun and the second one was fun, and then I forgot about it and never came back to it.

Michael Chan: 9:29
That's the real dev journey right there. Exactly.

Tim Bourguignon: 9:34
Exactly. And so, slowly but surely, this idea of doing a book just didn't stick and I did some talks. That's where I started talking about unicorns quite a bit. That stuck with me for a while. Stick and I did some talks um, that's where I started talking about unicorns quite a bit. That stuck with me for a while. I received some unicorn goodies from my uh, from my colleagues. After that, quite a long time, I have some, some, some shoes in unicorns form somewhere year round, and but at some point, in order to to write all this, I had started asking questions around and really calling people and asking them questions about hiring, about their career, etc. And this started to, or the idea started to germinate and say, hey, that might be really interesting. And there we get stories that I've never heard somewhere else, and that's basically when 1 plus 1 plus one made three and the idea of a podcast started. That's the long answer. I love it. I love it.

Michael Chan: 10:29
Now it's really interesting because I think that it sounds like such a really great kind of like cohesive thing at the beginning. Right Like I want to learn these things. I should talk with people who know these things and I can learn along the way. But then it kind of takes on a life of its own. You know a podcast, like you mentioned. You're spending many hours now of your free time to like take this thing. That was supposed to be this very cohesive, simple thing, and now it's like it quickly has a life of its own. What got you to actually like commit to it? That's a big piece of it. You're like, ok, start a podcast right and you know, and then you record one thing and then it just languishes. You're like, ah well, I guess that was fine and then you move on with your life, but you didn't. You like you, you've gone through to 299 of these. Uh, so how did? How did? How did you break through from like, well, that was a fun idea.

Tim Bourguignon: 11:21
Uh, never gonna do that to actually like breaking and producing yeah, um, I won't have a decisive answer, but I remember a couple things. So the first 24 no, a bit more than that the first 30 episodes or so where people I had met in person, even though we recorded over the air, I I knew them. So the first, I would say the first 20, some of them I would call good friends, some of them I would call really good contacts, but really people I knew. And the first episode was on march 2nd 2016, and there's some jumps around. For instance, there there's almost a year jump between June 2016 and January, not a year, six months between June 2016 and January 2017, where there's between episode 15, 16 and 17, and 18, with a 17 here that I removed afterwards, actually. So if you look carefully at the list of the episodes, you won't count 300. But the numbering I kept it and I removed some episodes okay, sometimes because I tried stuff and yeah and so it's really, it's 300 episodes recorded.

Tim Bourguignon: 12:33
Uh, I would say 289 published, maybe something like this, but uh, but anyhow, um, and I remember 2018. I was at the conference, a conference here in the tech conference, and somebody asked me and said, hey, I've seen, you haven't published for a while. And that was a mind-blowing moment, saying what Somebody did, isn't it? Yeah, and I remember this sparking, really sparking something, and saying, okay, shit, I have to try. That's where I started recording with people I knew less, not yet people I hadn't met, but people I knew less. And then trying to reach out to people I didn't know and seeing, hey, it works, people respond to that.

Tim Bourguignon: 13:22
And so this fear of not having anyone to record with kind of went away and I said, okay, now I can actually do my own rhythm. And so I started until 2019, beginning of 2019. Couldn't say exactly when I would have to look at the numbers. Well, actually pretty far in 2019. Until summer 2019, every two weeks, and there was an episode every two weeks, and that was okay every two weeks, and I was, that was okay. There was a reason that was okay. And then at some point, for whatever silly reason, I said let's go weekly it was the worst decision that you ever made in your life in a way.

Tim Bourguignon: 13:57
In a way it was and it wasn't, um, I mean, I mean in terms of of sleepless nights. It was, yeah, my son was still young, my daughter was still young, and the third one wasn't born yet, and so it still had some sleep left. But no, I don't remember exactly how that came to be, but I think it was something like I'm not seeing enough people, I want more of that.

Tim Bourguignon: 14:30
Yeah, yeah, yeah, at some point I think I did. Show number 100 was really about myself and show number 200 was more about the show, and I think Patrick, who interviewed me on that one, really asked why, why are you doing this? And and the the? The honest answer I could give him is is because it's it sparks. Yeah, hearing those people listening to you, to the stories, it's really fun, and I I, I'm going to say it Sometimes I brought my kids to bed because I record quite often at night and told my wife okay, I have a recording tonight, I just don't want it, I just hey. And then an hour and a half later I have a big, big smile on my face, my cheeks are hurting. We've been laughing for 90 minutes and I just can't sleep anymore, and so I was dreading some of the recordings and then afterwards I was on a small cloud somewhere. It was just rainbows and unicorns. So really listening to those stories has been fantastic.

Michael Chan: 15:41
Yeah, it's almost like a show that's put on just for you, right? Like there's something so personal about having a conversation with another person and it's just the two of you, and like that only exists in podcasting, I think. And it's wild that people say yes, like you alluded to this earlier, right. Like it's so weird that you're like you just put up a website, you start sending audio files on an RSS feed and then now people are like oh yeah, I'll have an hour and a half conversation with you.

Tim Bourguignon: 16:13
Yeah, it's insane An hour and a half is is so much and that people say yes, I wouldn't say 90% of the time, but almost. It's absolutely insane. It can reach out to anyone, anyone, not anyone. I've had some people say no, I had some people don't not, not answer, but a large majority says yeah, hell, yeah, right away. And this, this is mind-blowing. You don't know me for sure. The only credentials I have is this list here of 200 plus people, but I guess it.

Michael Chan: 16:42
I'm curious what role do you feel like intentionality and just the changing world has to play in people's eagerness to say yes? Because I think the world has changed pretty dramatically and I'll kind of stage this a little bit the world has changed very dramatically and we really don't have a lot of moments, like we used to, where we're just sitting around talking about stuff. Do you feel like that has primed people to want to dive into these conversations and give you that hour and a half to share part of their story?

Tim Bourguignon: 18:26
That's a good one. I have no idea. Yeah, it might be. It might be. When was the last time somebody looked at you in the eyes and say, hey, I'm gonna listen to you for for an hour and not not try to to sound smart, not try to trick you, not try to to speak about me, but it's gonna be about you.

Michael Chan: 18:48
For an hour doesn't happen so much you know, apart from a podcast, I don't think that's ever happened to me.

Tim Bourguignon: 18:57
Oh, that's right, you were on the India hot seat at some point. Short number 214, people. Hey, nice, nice, nice callback. Yeah, you called yourself a mule back then.

Michael Chan: 19:15
No, I have used that a lot since have I have used that a lot since. I have used that a lot no, but that that's right.

Tim Bourguignon: 19:22
That's right. Um, really being listened uh to and being able to have an honest conversation without dreading something else to to interject or or to pop up and really have time for that, that's really exciting.

Michael Chan: 19:38
I remember from episode 214, as you very aptly called out, you did a wonderful job of preparing for the show but then also feeling it out and just letting it go like where it went, and that is an art. That is craft, that is art. And I'm curious at what point did you feel like you got a hang of that, or do you feel like you have haven't even gotten the hang of it yet?

Tim Bourguignon: 20:05
I still don't no, I still don't. I mean there there's um, there's chemistry, there's definitely chemistry, and I've done a lot in preparing the guests. So you alluded to doing work beforehand. The work I do beforehand is not in researching the guests. I research the guests enough to know that something interesting is going to come, to know if I have to poke at something precise at some point, but that's it. To know if I have to poke at something precise at some point, but that's it. Just if somebody has an interesting twist at some point, I want to get in there and just be sure that we're going to talk about this, but that's it. And the rest of the preparation that I do is really preparing the guests to be in the right mindset, with the right information when they show up. So it starts weeks before with uh, you might remember a very large email that I sent with some questions.

Tim Bourguignon: 21:02
It's insane. This is just pages and pages, but it really tells you everything that's going to happen and at the end there are 10 questions that kind of show you where you should be going in your mind, uh, how you can reflect about your story, et cetera. And those are not the questions that I'm going to ask afterwards. They are to help you prepare. And then when we start recording or start getting online together, we talk for 20 plus minutes to get ready and to really get a good laugh or two or 12, really start getting on the same page. Then I get a feel of the the guest is really like and and what they're like and and how I can adapt to, to their way of speaking, their way of being, if I'm gonna have to be very present and really ask a lot of questions, or if they are volunteering so much information that I can just mix it up and and this is very important because if this goes well, the next 45 minutes are going to be a bliss but it's it's not as much me as getting the guests in their right mindset to be ready for that.

Tim Bourguignon: 22:11
Obviously, there is some, some work from my end afterwards, asking some kind of right question at the right time. But why I'm pushing back a little bit is because there have been some fantastic discussions where I didn't do anything, where really the guests were there and yours was worth a little bit. You were volunteering so much information that I just picked up and rebounded on stuff and anywhere, just going places and there's been hard conversations. So it was conversations where people were not volunteering stuff and where I had really to to go deep into what could I ask next, and after 12 minutes we were at the end of their story already. And then you have to go back and that was hard. If I could master do's every time then I would say, hell, yeah, I did your question, but I'm sure I can't.

Michael Chan: 23:01
It is interesting. I do very distinctly remember that being a unique aspect of being a guest on your show was all of that preparatory material and it was like I say it's unique, it was truly unique, honestly, like most of the times, it's like you get an invite and I'm guilty of this, it's unique, it was truly unique. I honestly, like most of the times, it's like you get an invite and this is and I'm guilty of this too Like this is how I did it. Like you get an invite and then like maybe a reminder, like you know an hour or four, like hey, just a reminder, like this is the, this is the studio link we're going to be recording. And there was something very fun about the reflective process of kind of preparing mentally for a show and I really it very much stuck with me.

Michael Chan: 23:42
That idea of giving someone some sample questions of this is where you should be mentally. These are the types of questions that I'm going to ask. I'm not going to trick you into anything. But also, these are not the questions I'm going to ask. I'm going to ask you unique questions in the moment and I'm not going to tell you what they are. I love that. I love that. It's great.

Tim Bourguignon: 24:04
Yeah, I know some people really broke a sweat at this moment saying, well, I won't know the question, no, you won't, I don't know them either. But I must say I'm asking them about the topic they know best, they are the the only uh, subject matter experts themselves and that makes a big difference. That makes a big difference. Um, I I'm not sure. Or maybe we could, we could talk about angular react or whatever and get in there without you knowing the questions. But you speaking about yourself is a whole different game. It's really a whole different level of knowledge and introspection. Nobody can know if you're not right or not entirely right at that moment, and that de-dramatizes a lot of what we're saying.

Michael Chan: 24:57
Yeah, yeah, that's super well put. Now I'm curious in your own journey with this podcast, surely there was a point at which it was too much and, as some say, like the juice wasn't worth the squeeze right. It was maybe too hard and, despite how much you really enjoyed having the conversations, it was challenging. I'm curious what motivated you through that, or what did you learn about yourself that you then changed, that made it possible to continue the show? Oh, that's a very good one.

Tim Bourguignon: 25:32
I remember one of those after 100-ish, one of those I would have to lie when was it? Just before 200, something like this, and then kind of now. So those three are different. The one after 100-ish was it was a time where it was really a lot of work. I spoke about 10 hours plus afterwards and it was really that it was really a lot of work. I spoke about 10 hours plus afterwards and it was really that it was really way too much work. I was doing everything on my own, not getting any help with scripts I had created with subpar tools, with everything, and it was just too much.

Tim Bourguignon: 26:10
And there came a make or break moment where I was okay, I managed to twist it up and and do way less work or I'm gonna have to call it a day and that's where I really spoke with a couple people um, really tried out new tools, wrote new scripts and managed to automate much of the work I was doing. I I used um no code tools extensively to automate a lot of email sending reminders. I managed to find people while doing something else and I had templates and it's just insert name there and already created all the skeletons of what I was sending. Then I just had to research people a bit and add some key elements that I found about them, because I wanted the emails to be really tailored to people not blasting emails, and that made a difference as well. But then the rest of the work was just just without quotes, 15 minutes of stalking someone, finding interesting moments and putting that in an email, and so the work decreased quite a bit and that really helped me get over that first hill. Had I not found this, I guess 100 something would have been the first drop.

Tim Bourguignon: 27:23
The second one was summer 2021. Covid was there. It was obviously ups and downs, and that's the moment where I changed jobs and jumped on the job I'm right now, which is a director level position in a startup, so a whole different job than what I had before, a whole different rhythm. There I said, ok, if I don't give out the editing, if I don't get help, it's going to be tough, and so. But strangely enough, yeah, yeah, I had to pay for that and that's uh that. That's okay. That's my uh white boy uh privilege that I paid back there and I'm very serious about this. Um, I know how privileged I was, and so, if I can help people, or if I could help people with those stories, that's yeah, that's well paid, but so really I had to to fight with myself in order to accept giving out the editing. I accept not doing this on my own anymore, not being the the not not just the sole owner, but really the only person responsible and accountable for the quality of what comes out.

Tim Bourguignon: 28:33
And this was hard. This was really hard. I searched for an editor for a very long time and finally found a fantastic guy and we've had a great relationship and it worked well, very well until now. But that was really hard giving it out and saying I'm not going to do that on my own. And so there is a world where I would have said no, not worth it, it not giving it out, and that's it. And the final, the final uh hill is the one I'm on right now. I enjoy those discussions so much, but I'm now in a place where the whole rest is um, is is dread, is just oh boy, I have to do that again. Loving the discussions when I'm there, I don't regret any second of those recordings, but the rest has become too much and I guess it has to do with where I'm with my life right now.

Tim Bourguignon: 29:27
The kids are growing up, it's a lot at work, it's a lot at home. It's just becoming too much. That's the only place you can put it. So is it the time to uh, to uh, to announce this, and I'm not sure you had some more questions, but I guess I guess it's the logical uh, the logical next step? Um, it's, I guess it's gonna be a hill. I'm gonna stay on for for quite a while and uh, and this 300 uh is gonna be the uh, the last number for a bit.

Tim Bourguignon: 29:55
I I'm going to move to France next year with the family. That's a big adventure that we're going to do together and I don't see myself continuing this while having this new endeavor with the family, and obviously the family is going to be way, way, way more on the front for everything. My wife is German, I'm French, we live in Germany, and so now we want to spend one year in France so that the kids can experience France with their own eyes and not just through me. And so it's going to be them for one year, and I fear that keeping the show alive for that one year is not going to work out. That hill is going to be the one I'm going to be stuck for a bit On to, and we'll see if I come back in summer 2025, it will be and restart, or if I will have moved and turned the page and I'm sure I won't stay on my butt and not do anything. I'm sure I'll start something new. I just cannot stop. But will it be this or will it be something else?

Michael Chan: 30:55
Well, I mean, if you have to give it up for a reason, I do feel like focusing on family is like such an important thing I think it's hard to describe. So my kids right now are 13 and 10. You know, you really do at a point start to feel your own mortality in a sense, and you start to feel that that like not to take it there all the way there, right, but like take it some of the way there maybe, like you start to feel like, oh, these, my kids are growing up fast and these could be some of the last moments of intentional focus that I give to them.

Michael Chan: 31:32
And it makes that equation a lot harder because, yeah, there's like a you know, a thousand people that you would love to give that, you know, as we talked about that hour and a half of, like uninterrupted intention to, you know, there's a time and place where it's like, hey, like I want to give all of those one and a half hours to my kids and make sure that they have the best of me. And that is a hard decision when you love both. Yes, it is.

Tim Bourguignon: 32:01
Yes, it is, and definitely my oldest is 11 now. And I start to feel the same when I tell him, hey, do you want to do that? And he looks at me and says, no, I'm going to my friends. It cuts Right in the face, it cuts Ouch, and no, it's really when we manage to connect, then I really want to be there, and, and because I'm starting to see I'm not the only interesting stuff in his life anymore. And then for the not that I was ever.

Michael Chan: 32:30
That was a joke, damn it, but but you were not laughing, I mean there is a point like I feel like they're joke aside like there's, that is very real, where there's there's a transformation that takes place, where maybe not the only interesting part of their life, but like you're kind of the only consideration, the extra, only external consideration in their life, and when that switches, it kind of is motivating in a way, like it's definitely attention grabbing, uh for sure to to be like, oh yeah, no, there's, like there's, there's definitely a. A time limit on this you know, the me being the only external consideration in your life is already passed, and so I want to like soak up as much of that, that waning uh interest, as possible before the teenage comes.

Tim Bourguignon: 33:22
Yeah, yeah, it's true.

Michael Chan: 33:25
It's true because I've I've heard it's going to be fun, it's interesting I'm only just at the beginning of that adventure and it's interesting, it's fascinating yeah, that's the way to put it.

Michael Chan: 33:40
I'm curious too. I want to say, like, as your responsibilities have changed, right, you mentioned being more at like a director level. Being at a director level now, does that kind of change the equation, I guess, on how much value you get out of on the ground developer types of conversations. But like when you started it, right, when you started it, you know, eight years ago, there was a, you were on a parallel track, right. So it's like you're coming, you're inviting an expert on, you're kind of walking this road together and then you walk away with something that you can actually like, take away and implement, you know, maybe right then. And so I imagine that as you have gotten to this director level, it's kind of your own developer journey has like kind of diverged from what you're actually doing day to day and how quickly you can implement some of the stuff that people are talking about. Is that, am I like totally off base, or is that like something that is part of the equation?

Tim Bourguignon: 34:34
It might be, but I think you're off base, uh, and let me tell you what, and that's that's something I'm actually not not sure of, at least where it comes from or if it's really this or not. You hear me out, when I, when I started the show, I I never intended the show to be a technical show. I intended the show to be about the daily lives and the path of software developers, and so we had technical discussions, but it was really as one key moment in a story and not as the backbone of the story. And the backbone of the story has always been people, has always been dealing with people, stuff in a technical context, but dealing with people stuff.

Tim Bourguignon: 35:19
The persona I had in mind very early for the show was young developers starting their careers having a couple years of development under their belt, and where they start facing the unknown unknowns of not being a junior anymore, where you let go of that hand that has been guiding you since the beginning and realize where do I do now? What do I do? Where do I go? I have no idea. And I remember this, uh, for myself being absolutely exhilarating on on the one end and absolutely being absolutely scared, shitless at the same time and saying, okay, I, I am responsible in deciding where I want to go next, and whoa.

Tim Bourguignon: 36:06
And so that was the first persona I had in mind, and right around that time, when I I started the show, I started mentoring um from a mental perspective and started rediscovering all this through the eyes of the people I mentored. And so this human element and this how do I decide, what do I do? Where could I go? What's I, what's me? That I got on the show was very much feeding into what I did on my daily work, and becoming more and more senior in my daily work hasn't changed that. I still deal with people. I still deal with people who have no idea where they're going. They can be junior or they can be already very senior and they still need the help in figuring this out. Spoiler alert I do as well, and so it's still the same conversations, just a different context. And so all the things I took from from the different shows, the different episodes, really feed in in my day to day work still nowadays that makes sense.

Michael Chan: 37:10
Yeah, oh, for sure, for sure, and I love that, the idea of kind of having all these conversations at different levels but then being able to distill that into working patterns, things that actually you know you carry with you throughout your career. I'm curious, looking back, what are some of the ones that seemed most or have been most transformative?

Michael Chan: 37:30
Yeah, like for you like, what are some of the patterns that you've? You've 299 of these is, you know, is is a lot, and so like, as you kind of, what is it Map filter, reduce over those as as patterns for living and patterns for living in a, you know, developer focused career. What are some of the things that were, and continue to be, very transformative lessons from from this time that were, and continue to be, very transformative lessons?

Tim Bourguignon: 37:57
from this time. The first one comes very much from the second career part of the stories. You were one of those, so you wanna count? Yeah, I remember right and you swept at some point. And what I realized and so again and again and again and again in all those stories, is that it's not a restart when you start developing or changing a career. It's very much of adding a new skill set, adding something new to an already pretty full plate.

Tim Bourguignon: 38:31
And what I've seen quite often is people trying to negate what has been happening before and tell you where well you've been coding for six months so you're obviously a junior developer and trying to see people as junior developers but senior human beings and seeing all the things that they bring, connecting all those dots, connecting all the, the sums of the things that people did before.

Tim Bourguignon: 38:58
And when you compare a developer with six months under their belts coming out of whatever school or university, it's going to be belittling but they're babies.

Tim Bourguignon: 39:10
And when you compare that to a 40-year-old single mom that has been struggling with life for 20 years and kids and taking care of everything, this person is bringing life experience like nobody else and they are going to have a transformative effect on people around them and this is worth gold and this really opened my eyes onto that and helped them stay open in connecting the dots that don't seem to be connectable and try to poke at people and say, hey, you've done this in the past, how does that influence your work nowadays? And people look at me and say, are you nuts? And after an hour conversation they say, oh, by the way, actually you're right and it's influencing this in this way and this way and in this skill. I picked it up back then. I didn't realize that and this has been a life lesson really, to to see people in in their entirety, even though we are in a very narrow and and special field.

Michael Chan: 40:12
Um, the rest I matter, I love it. It reminds me so much of uh. Have you watched the the show Ted Lasso on Apple plus? Oh, yeah, okay.

Michael Chan: 40:23
It reminds me of season one and I mean I feel like they show this off very early, so it's not really spoilers. But you know two of the main players on the team. One of them is kind of end of career, kind of sunsetting. You know a seasoned, a seasoned soccer player, right. And then another one's like right at the beginning of their career, taken off their hot shot.

Michael Chan: 40:44
All that and it shows so much like animosity between the two of them, right, and so much of the job of the coach is to try to connect those dots and be like you have so much that you can learn from each other and the enemy is not inside the house, like the enemy is out there.

Michael Chan: 41:05
Like we're supposed to be working together and and harnessing all of the things that we have, regardless of how much, like all this energy is misplaced.

Michael Chan: 41:13
And um, I think that's a really beautiful idea, that the idea of seeing everyone as senior people. Everyone is bringing some type of experience, like whether that is the fresh eyes of, like bringing brand new into it, or like seeing how the you know sometimes objectivity is like you know, of like hey, this is just a job, right, like this, like I'm only doing this for money, because, like I have to to, you know, for the things that I actually care about, that matter in life that I've discovered over the last, you know, 40 years of living, and both of those are so important and, when we can, when we see each other as like collaborators, we can harness that in like really powerful ways to like find that that gap and understand, like what it is that we're building, what it is that we're we're doing and learning. You know, you know we can, we can be inspired on both sides and that's, that's a that's a tremendous lesson it is, it is, and I've been on the receiving end of this recently.

Tim Bourguignon: 42:10
Uh, we did the 360 reviews with uh, with colleagues, and I went at it with a very um, imposter syndrome, yeah, sure, feeling uh, because they're all brilliant and um, they, they, they outmatch me in every way and and it's, it's fantastic. And one of them told me, hey, but, but you're so calm, you, you're, you're bringing the pace down and, and this we love so much, I said what it was another way to say you're old, but but it's really something I had I hadn't uh seen about myself and and there he connected two dots that I really didn't suspect would be interesting. And so when somebody else does this for you and and finds out how your past influences you as a person and influence all the people, now this is fascinating. And so really put those goggles on people and uh, and try to see the world this way.

Michael Chan: 43:05
It's good, it's going to be transformed. Yeah, and you know, I think that's a beautiful thing that you're bringing into. You know, directing is the ability to see the world now from so many different perspectives and stages in life. Right, like, I think that's maybe even the more important piece, right, is that you've been able to listen to so many people talk about exactly the place that they're in and the lessons that they're learning there, and so you know the value of paying attention, you know the value of listening and being able to coach other people in that philosophy, to slow down the pace, as you you mentioned, and be like, hey, you know what? I think that there's something that we could probably learn here. Let's just, let's just, you know, put the brakes on a second, listen up, open our ears a little bit and like see what happens yeah, no, that's very true.

Tim Bourguignon: 43:51
Yeah, you want another one.

Michael Chan: 43:52
Oh, yeah, please, yeah, yeah, as many as you got. That's what we're here for the.

Tim Bourguignon: 43:58
The next one, um, I kind of knew about it, so it's not. It's not an entirely uh one that really dropped on me, but it was highlighted so many times over that I just cannot ignore it and it's the importance of relations. No matter how technical we are, um, and we you know our sick, uh, scientific brains we imagine there is a solution for everything and and there is one answer, a technical answer to everything, the most important stuff is still people and whatever you do, it's still people. I remember a funny, uh, a funny thing.

Tim Bourguignon: 44:32
Uh, at the end of my studies in engineering school, I went to, I attended to the major I did at the end of my studies was in system architecture and system integration, whatever, and year after year they had less and less students. The head professor said, hey, do you want to do some kind of intervention in the classes below us and just tell them about what we're doing? It's going to be a great marketing effort. I said, yeah, sure, let's do that. And the people in the room were just poking back at but we don't like tech and everything. And at some point I was, I was fed up and said, well, but it's not about tech anyway, it's about people, and I saw the glaring eyes of the of the head professionals. He just shut up, but back then I was sure of it already it's all about people and the the. What is going to make a project, make a company, is people. What is going to break it is people as well. The tech is never going to be the problem now. And I'm going to make a project, make a company, is people. What is going to break it is people as well. The tech is never going to be the problem. Now I'm going to be the old man in the room when I look back I don't see the projects I did.

Tim Bourguignon: 45:42
I remember that person and that person and that person, and I remember playing a role in the life of that one, and I remember looking at this one on LinkedIn a couple of years ago and saying, oh, holy shit, he has grown so much and he did this and they did that. And that's what you remember, not the project. And so building relations, being there for people, being interested into what they tell you this is the alpha and the omega, and this has been said so many times in stories, sometimes under the uh, the pretense of networking, sometimes in mentoring, sometimes in doors being opened, um. So there's a little different flavors to speak about it, but it's really.

Tim Bourguignon: 46:21
At some point I was interested in somebody and I really give this person time and and something ensued, whether that be something good for me or something good for them, or or just nice relationship, um, sometimes the doors being opened which you didn't suspect and for myself, doing this show has opened so many doors, um, that I never knew would be openable at some point and uh, and and it's been fantastic. And so being selfless and listening to people asking, honest and genuine, it's really, it's a superpower.

Michael Chan: 46:56
Yeah, I completely agree. I think I think that is why people say yes, you know. Back to that like why? Why do people even say yes to coming on these, you know, these podcasts or these shows? I think that it is a superpower to be able to prioritize someone and like put someone first and to to listen. I think that it is rare in the world today to be interested in what someone else has to say and the full, like the full scope of their perspective. Uh, I think that's. You know. I think a lot of times people, you know, we see more and more people are playing that, that trick or that short-term game where it's like I'm trying to get a soundbite out of you so that I can like dunk on you for the rest of eternity.

Tim Bourguignon: 47:39
Not guilty of having been done that any time ever.

Michael Chan: 47:46
Yeah, it's like having genuine care for people. You know, it seems like such a funny way that, like a podcast would be a way of expressing care for people. I think it really is, and I'm so delighted that you have taken that away from it right, that you have had experiences with people more than just episodes or views or clicks or likes or whatever. You've had honest to God experiences and connections with people that you then, from that point forward, get to share in what they've done and, point forward, get to share in what they've done and they could likewise get to share in what you've done.

Tim Bourguignon: 48:18
And and one of the things that I I cherish really is when I reach out to to former guests and that they right away remember and and say, oh yeah, that's a that's fun discussion when we we talked about this and that. And saying, oh yeah, that's a fun discussion when we talked about this and we talked about that. And saying, oh, holy shit, it wasn't just one hour recording in your life, it left a trace. Sometimes some guests say, wow, never seen this in this perspective before. After the show we have a discussion about that and they leave the show saying I think that's again something. Wow, that was so much and so rewarding for me as a host. And this was really the connections or the relations I'm talking about, when we managed to not just have an interesting conversation but grow a bit on both sides of the interview.

Michael Chan: 49:11
Yeah, I was interviewing with someone and it was very casual, but we had I had had them as a guest on the podcast before and they had this moment, like when we got on the call, the interview call wait a second was it was that podcast the only time that we've ever actually like talked, because I feel like I feel like we have like such a long history of of communicating with each other and I feel like that's the power of that focus right. It's like, oh wow, like you, you made a friend in that hour and a half, like that's. That's a powerful transformation to have happen from like perfect stranger to relationship. It's wild, it's wild.

Tim Bourguignon: 49:51
It is, and I'm not sure if you're talking about us right now, but I could be right, you could be, you could be we. We actually interacted a bit on on twitter, um, since and before, but we haven't had that much interaction. Uh, all the way, all than this, when I searched for someone who could, uh, who could, accompany me on show 300, you were the first one to come and say hey, we had so much fun. We connected right away. I said you have got to to invite you again and I'm, I'm so glad. You say the hell, yeah, oh yeah, I'm there. I'm there. You're really, really hitting the nail on the head with it on the head with it. Having so little time together and still be able to connect deeply with people is magical. It's really magical.

Tim Bourguignon: 50:40
The third one I have for you it's about making your own path. It's a more thorny one when I described the beginning of the junior path being this guided place where people take you by the hand, show you the moves and you basically repeat sets of steps and if you do that well, the outcome is given. This is how I describe being a junior, and graduating out of this is basically making your own path, is realizing that the steps you were given are not the only way to do it, maybe in your context are not the right way to do it, that you know stuff or you discover stuff that other people don't know, and that you have to start finding your answers to those questions on your own. And realizing that it's your life, it's your path. You decide you may be in a job somewhere doing Java. Still the rest of the industry is open to you. You can go wherever you want if you put your mind to it. You can learn javascript by java.

Tim Bourguignon: 51:42
Javascript easy, easy to go from one to the other right, yeah, absolutely it's coffee anyway so, um, no, but if you put your mind to it, you can do it. Seeing this in these paths and these new stories again and again and again and again is really something empowering and making you understand that you're not stuck anywhere. You can do it. And this has made really left a trace or a mark on my life, saying where do I want to go? What would I choose to do next? And at some, at some times, I really felt guilty of being in the flow and just going with wherever job is taking me. And, um, some stories really struck back and and pushed me back into the no, you could be true, you're choosing to go this way you are choosing to stay with the flow.

Tim Bourguignon: 52:43
It's not the way it is. It's not. It's not a a universal truth. You're choosing this and you could be choosing something else. Hearing that was, and is still, one of the things I cherish about all those stories and that really influences the way I think, yeah, no, it does.

Michael Chan: 53:00
And let me try to reframe it just to make sure that I do understand it, because I think it's a very important thing to attack from a couple angles. I know this is something that I've kind of like gone through quite a bit with my my therapist this idea of kind of owning my decisions, um, and not being a, not seeing them as a product of the circumstances that created them, and I think that that is, there's a radical ownership that a lot of us don't take over our lives, right, like, oh well, you know, this was the opportunity that I had, and so I use that as a foothold, and then I, you know, kind of like continued to learn and, you know, whatever, and so now I do this thing that I hate there is it's so easy to kind of like fall into that trap, and being intentional and owning your decision gives you power over the outcome as well, and you know, also it makes you responsible for the outcome, you know, if it's unfavorable. So, you know, I think that's why we avoid accepting it a lot of the times, but it is empowering, you know, to say like you know what. There were many circumstances that led to this, but also I chose it and that gives me power to choose the next thing as well. I do love that. I think it is powerful advice that you know that I don't see a lot, you know, honestly, in the industry. There's this.

Michael Chan: 54:20
My wife gave me this phrase today, kind of talking about a similar thing. I think it was from Fred Rogers, mr Rogers' Neighborhood, and I guess he kind of described his path through life as a guided drift. He had the principles that he really wanted to live by but didn't really know how to apply them and like what the direction was. You know it talked about living life is this kind of like guided drift where the principles were. Principles were kind of like, you know, paving the way, but like in the middle it was very kind of icy and like kind of moving, you know, a little bit unstructured at times, um, but kind of in the rear view. You can look back and be like no, the, the principles were the thing that kind of like kept me on the track that I ultimately wanted to go to, even though there were moments in between that felt undirected I love that.

Tim Bourguignon: 55:07
I love that. And also the uh, the um, the, the fact that the drift is neither positive nor negative. There's no qualifier on it. A guided drift could be a good thing at some point and it could be a bad thing at some other point, but put in the light of the principles, then you know it's going in the right direction and so it's good. But I guess you have time in your life for for drifting because you need it, for drifting because you cannot do anything else. Uh, for drifting because you have the energy to drift now and explore and do the are the same words again that we're talking a lot about, words before the show started and um, it's, it's, uh, it's playing on words but really having different meanings that all apply in this context. That's a good one.

Michael Chan: 55:56
Guided drift, leave it to Fred Rogers. That guy was great. So I'm curious, as you get ready to press the big pause button, possibly indefinitely. We're not saying that it is indefinite or not, we don't know yet. It's just like Apple there's no, stop't know yet it's just like Apple.

Michael Chan: 56:15
There's no stop button in iTunes, it's just a pause button. You're going to come back to the music in some way or form. So, as you get ready to press the big proverbial pause button, what do you think you'll miss the most as you create almost a new gap or space in your life?

Tim Bourguignon: 56:38
I know it has been challenging, in a good way, to hear all those stories I didn't suspect existed, and so I know it has pulled me into corners of my psyche of the world that I didn't know existed, that I didn't suspect, and I fear it's really a fear that I'm gonna fall back on my my bubble and and miss out on on the part of the world I won't be seeing anymore, and this is really something that worries me because I discovered to to put it very, uh, very, very bluntly I discovered tools, I discovered frameworks, I discovered methods, I discovered books. That's the very, very material approach. I discovered philosophies. I've discovered quotes that I pondered for weeks. I've discovered people that I followed up afterward and really connected with afterwards, and so I know I'm gonna miss this.

Tim Bourguignon: 57:38
This worries me, this really worries me. Again, there there is a time for everything, and so I know now is not the time for that and then I need the headspace to do something else, but I know this is going to be something that I won't be having anymore and that won't be playing the role it's played in my life for the past almost eight years. Yeah, it's a big change.

Michael Chan: 58:03
Yes, it is. I do hope that I can encourage you that kind of on that idea of like principles and you know the guided drift and entering spaces where you don't really have. You know, you don't know exactly what it's going to look like. I think this is who you are. You know the desire to seek out information and perspective and like and experience the world, not just through your experience and your five senses, but through others as well. I don't think that that's anything that you can put on pause, you know. I think that that transcends and I do hope that you know in those times we're like, oh man, did I make the wrong choice? You know, whatever, am I missing out on some really great wisdom? I do hope that you remember that this is just. You know the show is only an expression of the creator, and that you remember, you know how this is. You know this is your principle, right Like. This is who you are to live in a way that is open and curious and excited about discovery.

Tim Bourguignon: 59:11
Amen to that. No, really, really, this is something I know, I do, I uh, I, I do, I do, I do me. That's how you say, it's the way I am, and so this won't change. But I won't get the exposure. I won't get the, uh, the exposure to that many different people. Um, I, I will continue to be to be curious about the people I meet, um, but I will necessarily not be meeting as many diverse people anymore. Well, I'll be meeting french people, but, uh, it's been germans only for 20 years, so french is good, uh, but no, I won't be.

Tim Bourguignon: 59:53
I will be in the social circles I'm in and it's going to be hard to get out of them. I'm going to meet people from different backgrounds, probably through the kids, not only technical people and meet a lot of other parents, etc. So I'm going to get my fair share of discoveries and human relationships there. But for the more career-applied connections it's going to be lacking a bit. But maybe I'm going to realize that the tech part was just a flavor. I can get that learning from somewhere else with a different flavor, and that's going to be applicable as well. Very well.

Michael Chan: 1:00:32
What an adventure right.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:00:39
Yes, an adventure up to now and then a different one, uh, starting, and that's really how we, uh we sold it to the kids, saying, hey, we're gonna go on an adventure for you, and it's gonna be an adventure for each and every one of us uh, your mom, who's not speaking so much french, and she, she, she speaks well, but never fluent and never been there. And the kids, who sometimes speak well and sometimes struggle. And and for me, who hasn't been in France for 20 years, and so it's an experience for everyone that's so exciting.

Michael Chan: 1:01:08
Well, I guess my last, you know my last question just burning question here. Uh, you didn't prepare. Yeah, my last question, just burning question here is Uh-oh, uh-oh Good you didn't prepare me for that, yeah. Is there one thing that you've always wanted to say on air, but maybe you have been too afraid to knowing that there was another episode that you were going to have to say? And if so, are you ready to say it now? Oh boy, Something I've been afraid also doesn't have to be afraid.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:01:39
I mean something that you've wanted to say, so yeah, so I say hey, you could have reached out a little bit more come on people that is the podcaster's plate, right like that's what ends all shows. I didn't even know you were listening out there I have the numbers so I know you're there, but but come on, would have just just torn your face off to say hello. I have the numbers so I know you're there, but come on, just turn your face off to say hello, oh, that's, if you don't get the joke.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:02:25
It's really hard to connect with listeners. It is, and you get some connections once in a while, but it's not even a percent of the listeners, it's 0.0 something and it's a lonely job. It's a really lonely job. And when I got some emails or some connections saying, hey, I listened to this episode and I got that out of it and and that was great or I don't understand why you went this way and some questions, that's so much made my week. You have no idea. Yes, yeah, so yeah, that's, that's one of the hard things. So don't reach out anymore. There won't be any more episodes.

Michael Chan: 1:03:15
That is a good one. I would not have thought about that, but that's really great. I completely empathize. People over the last couple of years have been like, oh, why did you stop podcasting? I was like I didn't know you were listening.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:03:39
I'm actually looking forward to that. No reason to pass me people for the thing I said in the last two minutes. I loved it when you reached out and it was absolutely fantastic. And if this is a closure for you as well those 300 episodes just reach out and tell me what you picked out of it, what you learned. That would that would make my day, yeah.

Michael Chan: 1:04:03
What is the best way to for them to to do that? Cause I want, I want nobody to have any excuse to not just say even just a thank you, right? Just thank you for the show. Just you know, let's you for the show, just you know, let's you know. I, you know, I know I'm a guest here, but I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna overstep and be like hey, if you're listening to this, write a damn note.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:04:24
Well, I don't do twitter anymore, so don't reach out on twitter, um, but the easiest way is info at dev journey. But info it's email.

Michael Chan: 1:04:33
I guess everybody kind of does you know every dev has to have an email, right like that's just it, to register for something. Use that one email we know you got and just say exactly info at dev journey dot info that's uh, that's.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:04:51
That's where, where I'm easiest to be here, to be found. I'm on masteron as well. You can find me on the socials, everything if it's easier for you. But the uh info at devjourneyinfo.

Michael Chan: 1:05:01
Oh, hey, you know, I just want to say thank you for thinking of me for, uh, you know, this last, this last episode before your pause. Um, it's, it's been an honor. I do feel like we know each other so much better than the two conversations that we've had now, the three combined hours that we've spent together and, yeah, I really appreciate you, I appreciate your approach, I appreciate your philosophy, what's brought you to all of this, and it's been an honor to just hear more about what it's meant to you. It's your show, so I'll let you.

Tim Bourguignon: 1:05:37
I'll let you close it. My cheeks are hurting and I'm not going to be able to sleep after it, but, like I said before, the way I usually close the show was was to say it was always. This has been another episode of Debra's Journey and we'll see each other next week. We'll see each other sometime. I would say Thank you so much everyone. Thank you, michael and uh. Have a good one everyone, and we'll call it a day there. Outro Music.